Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

China allows couples to have three children

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 339 posts

Re: China allows couples to have three children

#291

Post by chitowneats »

elefanten wrote: post #254
chitowneats wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The ASPI report said birth rates in counties with a 90 percent or greater indigenous population declined by an average of 56.5 percent from 2017 to 2018, far more than other regions in Xinjiang and China during the same period." https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-uses-coercive-poli... 56.5% decline in birth rates in one year when the right sample is taken. Beyond shocking. Doing such a thing with your left ha…

You’re absolutely right and this comment has no business being grayed.

Indeed, this seems to have touched a nerve. Interesting that no one has tried to refute my point directly.

There are others in the thread who seem to be suggesting that because Han Chinese have also been subject to population control measures, that my point is somehow invalid.

No one has yet explained why we see such steep birth rate declines, specifically in Uyghur regions, relative to the rest of China, only in the last half decade or so.

You know, right around the time they started rounding up millions of people in that same ethnic group and putting them in camps. The Chinese government has many euphemisms and rationalizations for these camps, but they don't dispute their existence. In any case we have satellite imagery.

What can one conclude about these coinciding actions by the Chinese state if not genocide? If it's not that, what is it?

Re: China allows couples to have three children

#292

Post by mensetmanusman »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #168
dcolkitt wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most precious resource by far is human ingenuity. Home Sapients are not like other organisms. Every additional person increases the rate of innovation across the entire species. Because of cultural transmission there are increasing returns to scale that don't exist in other species. For that reason, we are exempt from the normal laws of Malthusian ecology and carrying capacity. More people translates into higher,…

“Every additional person increases the rate of innovation across the entire species.” This is a wild claim. Not everyone is a net positive contributor to the species. The world’s resource are already consumed beyond their replenishment rates, and hundreds of millions of people suffer from abject poverty and constant food insecurity. Total fertility rate decline curves are objectively positive for humans as a species…

Not everyone, but on aggregate due to the network effect, specialization, and the odd statistics of the small % of humans able to grok mathematics.

Re: China allows couples to have three children

#293

Post by mensetmanusman »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #221
lolinder wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about forced sterilization, forced abortions, and the interplay between the one child policy and culture that led to massive numbers of sex-targeted abortions and infanticide? Calling it "population control" euphemizes away the horrible human cost of the enforcement methods and the collateral damage. I'd agree it's not the worst thing they've done so far, but given that they're actively committing genocide that's…

Agreed. The comment I was responding to took issue with China dictating a number of children—I don’t have a problem with that. The specific enforcement (sterilization, abortions, etc) are grotesque. Conceivably you can enforce population control without resorting to those measures.

How?

Re: China allows couples to have three children

#295

Post by beaunative »

chitowneats wrote: post #288
beaunative wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

update, in a related voa newspiece, it reads 'For example, in Hotan prefecture, where the Uyghurs make up about 97% of the population, the birthrate was 8.58 per 1,000 people in 2018. Before 2017, it was more than 20 births per 1,000 people' at the same time the national average was around 11

That's one specific example, yes. You can find the 36 page report here: https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/ad-aspi/2021-05/Fami... Edit: via this summary from ASPI (in case the AWS link above breaks in the future) https://www.aspi.org.au/report/family-deplanning-birthrates-...

Thank you so much. The full report is much more genuine than the abstract from the press. For example, it writes 'in Kashgar prefecture in 2014, the birth-rate soared to nearly 68 children per thousand people' at the same time the national average was around 12, perhaps because people in those regions are allowed more kids and the policy are rarely enforced compare to other region.

so if the birth rate in that region simply fall to national average, it will went down 80%. I think it's an perfect example of how numbers lie, but most people don't have any vested interest to find out.

Re: China allows couples to have three children

#296

Post by thinktankie »

beaunative wrote: post #284
chitowneats wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The ASPI report said birth rates in counties with a 90 percent or greater indigenous population declined by an average of 56.5 percent from 2017 to 2018, far more than other regions in Xinjiang and China during the same period." https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-uses-coercive-poli... 56.5% decline in birth rates in one year when the right sample is taken. Beyond shocking. Doing such a thing with your left ha…

the problem with that report is that I can't find anywhere the exact number, it only states decline by 56.5% without showing any specific numbers. I'm mildly suspicious that they originally had a much higher birth rate than Han Chinese since the same policy allowed one kid for Han Chinese allowed two to four kids for minorities

Correct [1].

In addition, ASPI is notorious for being sponsored by the US, UK and Australian weapons industry who have a vested interest in drumming up this kind of thing. I would take anything they have to say with a massive grain of salt [2].

[1] https://twitter.com/drStuartGilmour/status/13938342716939632...

[2] https://www.aspi.org.au/sponsors

Re: China allows couples to have three children

#298

Post by chitowneats »

beaunative wrote: post #295
chitowneats wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one specific example, yes. You can find the 36 page report here: https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/ad-aspi/2021-05/Fami... Edit: via this summary from ASPI (in case the AWS link above breaks in the future) https://www.aspi.org.au/report/family-deplanning-birthrates-...

Thank you so much. The full report is much more genuine than the abstract from the press. For example, it writes 'in Kashgar prefecture in 2014, the birth-rate soared to nearly 68 children per thousand people' at the same time the national average was around 12, perhaps because people in those regions are allowed more kids and the policy are rarely enforced compare to other region. so if the birth rate in that region…

I’m glad you had time to digest that report thoroughly in the 11 minutes between my comment and yours. Of course, everyone here should be aware that you are cherry picking. The conclusion of the report is that on average, there was a steep drop in birth rate in minority counties.

The report is named: "Family De-planning: The Coercive Campaign to Drive Down Indigenous Birth-rates in Xinjiang". This is not a case of media misrepresentation no matter how badly you want it to be.

The conclusion is typically found at the end of a report. Why don’t you go back and try again.

Re: China allows couples to have three children

#299

Post by screye »

roody15 wrote: post #164

Interesting side note on china during the one-child policy era. This policy was enforced on the masses but highly educated people were given waivers. If you were a engineer, professor or any highly skilled professional you were encouraged to have lots of children. China’s one child policy was mainly about population control but also had a eugenics component to it as well.

> China’s one child policy was mainly about population control but also had a eugenics component to it as well.

IMO, traditional societies have had a fascination with eugenics for practically centuries. 19th and early 20th century thinkers were deeply fascinated by it, and the idea didn't really get tabooed until Nazi Germany adopted as part of its agenda and that horrified the whole world for centuries to come.

For that reason, many posters with western values might find the accusation of eugenics to be quite harsh. But IMO, the social stigma against eugenics isn't nearly as prominent in non-European societies and it's even softly encouraged and openly talked about in some cases.(Singapore's SDU est.1984 being a good example)

To be clear, I do not endorse eugenics in any way. Also, I mean eugenics in purely: "Adding incentives for reproduction among certain people in society to promote what are perceived to be desirable traits within said society" and not "Genocide everyone who isn't of high blood".

Re: China allows couples to have three children

#300

Post by kbelder »

faitswulff wrote: post #275
lillecarl wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that abortion isn't killing infants, I don't get the racist part about this.

The racist part is the simple unchallenged assertion that Chinese people are so inhuman as to kill their infant children en masse.

They indisputably did, though. No fact can be racist.

Not because they're inhuman, of course; that sort of behavior has happened all throughout human history. It's just that, with China in the 20th century, the scale was huge.

Post reply on HN