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What Oxford taught me about posh people

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Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#71

Post by approxim8ion »

stablenode wrote: post #64
approxim8ion wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do have self-esteem issues, good catch, but I doubt my getting therapy would do much about already underpaid workers whose bosses are raking in bonuses while signing off on orders to furlough them, for example.

Ok. This sounds like a bit of a change of subject, but I think I follow. This all sounds a bit general: which 'underpaid workers' (and what is 'underpaid'?), which bosses, and how much are they 'raking in', is it illegal? You need to be more precise to diagnose a problem. More importantly -- what are these people of whom you speak doing about improving their condition? Are they demanding a raise? You have my sympathy…

Speaking about legality is so much better than speaking about morality, yes? It's convenient, sure, but that's about all it is. If you want a more 'precise' example, here's a thread from just yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27319477

> More importantly -- what are these people of whom you speak doing about improving their condition? Are they demanding a raise?

Not at all, I'm sure they just roll over and "let themselves be sacked" because that's how it works? Saying "just get a job where you're treated fairly" is extremely reductive. Said jobs wouldn't exist if the people employed in them were already happy with readily available non-"exploitative" jobs elsewhere.

I wasn't aware we were making economic arguments- after all your original comment ended asking whether it was immoral. Not economically unviable, not illegal. Immoral. Anyway, I'm not really looking for credibility, and my moral compass isn't tied to faith or organized religion, but your point is taken. Perhaps I am too, call it unrealistic or idealistic, for your taste. You're going to believe people like me invent problems to compensate for our failures, and I'm going to believe people like you overlook problems because they have found or earned enough to have the luxury to. We're not going to agree here and I'm not really interested in changing your mind. Have a nice day.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#72

Post by pnutjam »

pm90 wrote: post #35
gyulai wrote: post #10

I've studied in Cambridge myself, and feel like some context needs to be added here for American readers not to misunderstand something here: Admission to Cambridge & Oxford isn't related to family wealth in the same way as admission to "elite" universities in the U.S. For example: Tuition fees are in line with government-set rates and are no different for these institutions than other British universities (at least…

I think you may have a misunderstanding of how the US education system works. There are lots of scholarships and financial aid opportunities accessible for students that need them. Most “Elite State Schools” also have some kind of programs that give preference to bright students from their own state. E.g. University of Texas gives an automatic admission to the top 7% of Texas high school graduates. In state tuition i…

Surprisingly, Texas is a real outlier here. Most states have some last resort college you can attend, but it's usually a community college, or AS degree institution.

UT Austin is a really good school from what I hear.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#73

Post by pnutjam »

caddemon wrote: post #61
pm90 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you may have a misunderstanding of how the US education system works. There are lots of scholarships and financial aid opportunities accessible for students that need them. Most “Elite State Schools” also have some kind of programs that give preference to bright students from their own state. E.g. University of Texas gives an automatic admission to the top 7% of Texas high school graduates. In state tuition i…

Yes, also the private schools in the US that are comparable to Oxbridge all do need-blind admissions, and have very generous aid. Average cost paid at those schools is much lower than at mid-tier private schools or out of state schools. There are definitely a lot of indirect selection effects that lead to a smaller number of low income students at these schools, including legacy admissions at most of them as he point…

There are many of parts of the US education system that weed out poor people and disadvantaged people before the University has to deny their application. The poor people who get into elite universities in the US are very much an exception. Having parents that went to an Ivy League or going to one of their expensive "feeder" schools is the best indicator of whether you can get into an Elite US university.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#74

Post by stablenode »

approxim8ion wrote: post #71
stablenode wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok. This sounds like a bit of a change of subject, but I think I follow. This all sounds a bit general: which 'underpaid workers' (and what is 'underpaid'?), which bosses, and how much are they 'raking in', is it illegal? You need to be more precise to diagnose a problem. More importantly -- what are these people of whom you speak doing about improving their condition? Are they demanding a raise? You have my sympathy…

Speaking about legality is so much better than speaking about morality, yes? It's convenient, sure, but that's about all it is. If you want a more 'precise' example, here's a thread from just yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27319477 > More importantly -- what are these people of whom you speak doing about improving their condition? Are they demanding a raise? Not at all, I'm sure they just roll over a…

> Speaking about legality is so much better than speaking about morality, yes?

It isn't better, nor is it worse; it is merely more objective, that's all.

> I wasn't aware we were making economic arguments- after all your original comment ended asking whether it was immoral.

Yes, sorry, that was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but you're quite right on this count. I was simply attempting to rubbish an anti-capitalist argument in the article, but it blew up in my face.

> Perhaps I am too, call it unrealistic or idealistic, for your taste.

That's ok. Who's to say which one of us is 'right'? We can just say that we have profound disagreements about the merits of capitalism as an economic system -- I think that's fair and it shouldn't be a problem in a democracy.

> I'm going to believe people like you overlook problems because they have found or earned enough to have the luxury to.

You believe that if it gives you any comfort. For now, I'll just continue believing that "economics is the study of the use of scarce resources which have alternative uses" and leave it at that.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#75

Post by AlexSW »

stablenode wrote: post #69
AlexSW wrote: post #52

I went to a state school and state sixth form, and my experience definitely deviates from that presented in the article and some other comments here. I think the part of the article which focuses on more personalised teaching rings the most true for me. There may be differences due to the subject, level, or college. I did a one-year masters in STEM in a very international graduate Oxford college. But the vast majorit…

Similar story here. Perhaps arts degrees are different, but I could not relate this piece to any of my experiences from when I was studying for a CS degree. It felt as though the author was writing about a different country.

I had several close friends studying for their own Masters degrees in subdesciplines of Anthropolgy and History of Art, and I'm not aware of them having had different experiences either, so my current best guess is down to it perhaps being an undergraduate degree in one of the most exclusive colleges.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#76

Post by permo-w »

douglaswlance wrote: post #13
CapitalistCartr wrote: post #3

His last paragraph nails it: "I can see why people are sceptical about universities, and angry at the elite ones. They are often now little more than training camps for the stormtroopers of capitalism."

[flagged]

since 1979, it’s been slowly lowering them back in again

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#78

Post by azalemeth »

fallingknife wrote: post #47
azalemeth wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me too. Agree completely. I had to battle to get allowed to take the entrance exams -- my school didn't want to pay for an invigilator, so I sat them in the deputy head of the sixth form's office. I got in. It changed my life. I also realised that, on a course like physics, most of the students came from quiet, nerdy backgrounds like me. It was often history / english / classics / PPE etc where the "great public scho…

That's interesting, because Harvard has less students than that in a country with 5x the population. So, in terms of enrollment number / population, oxford is more like the whole ivy league rolled into one school.

Sorry -- I got it wrong. That "~30k" includes undergraduates and postgraduate students; it should also have been "~24k". The actual numbers are Undergraduates: 12k; Postgraduates: ~12k. Also, bear in mind that it is a very international university: International students make up 43% of Oxford students; 64% of all graduate students are from outside the UK, as are 20% of all undergraduates. So, think of the pool as being a lot larger.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#79

Post by permo-w »

stablenode wrote: post #77
permo-w wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

since 1979, it’s been slowly lowering them back in again

Exactly! Just look at those mad fools in China -- they'll never have it as good as they had it in 1979.

Ah I see your mistake. You assumed my comment referred to a system different to capitalism operating in a country that less than 1% of the people on Hacker News live in.

An easy mistake to make. Happens to me all the time. I see people talking about troop landings in WW2, and I instantly assume they’re referring to the Japanese invading China. Whoops. I’m so silly

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#80

Post by stablenode »

permo-w wrote: post #79
stablenode wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! Just look at those mad fools in China -- they'll never have it as good as they had it in 1979.

Ah I see your mistake. You assumed my comment referred to a system different to capitalism operating in a country that less than 1% of the people on Hacker News live in. An easy mistake to make. Happens to me all the time. I see people talking about troop landings in WW2, and I instantly assume they’re referring to the Japanese invading China. Whoops. I’m so silly

[flagged]
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