What Oxford taught me about posh people • Hacker News Board

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#61

Post by caddemon » Mon, May 31, 2021, 12:20 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #35

gyulai wrote: post #10

I've studied in Cambridge myself, and feel like some context needs to be added here for American readers not to misunderstand something here: Admission to Cambridge & Oxford isn't related to family wealth in the same way as admission to "elite" universities in the U.S. For example: Tuition fees are in line with government-set rates and are no different for these institutions than other British universities (at least…

I think you may have a misunderstanding of how the US education system works. There are lots of scholarships and financial aid opportunities accessible for students that need them. Most “Elite State Schools” also have some kind of programs that give preference to bright students from their own state. E.g. University of Texas gives an automatic admission to the top 7% of Texas high school graduates. In state tuition i…

Yes, also the private schools in the US that are comparable to Oxbridge all do need-blind admissions, and have very generous aid. Average cost paid at those schools is much lower than at mid-tier private schools or out of state schools. There are definitely a lot of indirect selection effects that lead to a smaller number of low income students at these schools, including legacy admissions at most of them as he points out. But acting like Harvard sorts by income in its admissions decisions is definitely not an accurate reflection of how things work in the US.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#62

Post by krageon » Mon, May 31, 2021, 12:23 PM UTC

varispeed wrote: post #14

gyulai wrote: post #10

I've studied in Cambridge myself, and feel like some context needs to be added here for American readers not to misunderstand something here: Admission to Cambridge & Oxford isn't related to family wealth in the same way as admission to "elite" universities in the U.S. For example: Tuition fees are in line with government-set rates and are no different for these institutions than other British universities (at least…

Do you think universities still offer knowledge otherwise not accessible anywhere else? I mean, there are courses that require "hands on" experience and guidance, but for things like IT, how uni is any better than e.g. Udemy, free lectures from around the world and meetups?

> how uni is any better than e.g. Udemy

Competent teachers with time for you and a body of advice (students, who have most definitely understood the material in the way it was offered if they are ahead of you) that isn't full of nonsense. There is something to be said for self-study when it comes to IT (I've learned significantly more on my own than at school), but it takes a lot of being able to recognise bullshit. That's not compatible with a lot of folks when they want to study.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#63

Post by dogma1138 » Mon, May 31, 2021, 12:26 PM UTC

gyulai wrote: post #58

dogma1138 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cambridge And Oxford and a few other “elite” unis don’t allow students to work during the school year afaik, this alone filters many students but “ironically” not the poorest ones which may be eligible for a full tuition cover + stipend. Low income families above the low income limit set by the government who cannot afford tuition + covering living expenses tend to be those who can’t really afford to attend those sch…

That's not only a side effect, but a stated principle: After you gain admission, you have to prove that you have the money you need to sustain yourself either through a scholarship, or you have to literally show a bank statement that shows that you have a lump sum in your account that will sustain you for the normal amount of time it takes to finish the degree. Living expenses are factored into this at a set rate. Yo…

The people who get shafted the most by this as I said aren’t “poor” but rather in the middle, the stipend that is available as a loan to students is dependent on the income of the parents and even a £45K household income would limit that stipend to around £6 whilst Oxford requires £10K for affordability and it’s unlikely that most households would be able to make up the difference unless they planned for that and made sacrifices early on in their child’s life and most importantly were lucky enough to able to afford to make those sacrifices consistently.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#64

Post by stablenode » Mon, May 31, 2021, 12:29 PM UTC

approxim8ion wrote: post #41

stablenode wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you develop that point? I went to a northern comprehensive; I now lecture CS, but I have no recollection of being 'stepped on' by the Tarquins and Glorias of this world along the way -- in fact, I always felt that it is they who should be worried if they try. You may have some self esteem issues, mate.

I do have self-esteem issues, good catch, but I doubt my getting therapy would do much about already underpaid workers whose bosses are raking in bonuses while signing off on orders to furlough them, for example.

Ok. This sounds like a bit of a change of subject, but I think I follow. This all sounds a bit general: which 'underpaid workers' (and what is 'underpaid'?), which bosses, and how much are they 'raking in', is it illegal? You need to be more precise to diagnose a problem.

More importantly -- what are these people of whom you speak doing about improving their condition? Are they demanding a raise? You have my sympathy if you are the one stuck with an unreasonable employer and feel that you are underpaid: my advice would be to look for a new job and tell your employer where to go once you've found one.

However, if you are not in that category -- I have to say that I've never found the altruistic Guardianista (there -- I've said it!) approach to economic problems to be at all credible. It all smacks of some perverse neo-Christian moralising about what's 'fair' and 'good'. You can nearly always tell that an economic argument is lost when people start speaking about morality. If you want to go to Heaven, you're welcome. Me -- I'd rather go to Disneyland : at least it's actually there (besides, I've never been before).

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#65

Post by gyulai » Mon, May 31, 2021, 12:32 PM UTC

caddemon wrote: post #57

gyulai wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking of the M.I.T. application form circa 2004. I seem to recall that it explicitly asked not just if I had enough money but to disclose how much money I had precisely, and it also explicitly asked if there were family members who had attended M.I.T.

Maybe things were different in 2004, but those forms do not cross paths with admissions decisions whatsoever, for at least the last decade. The financial aid office won't communicate with admissions until offers have been decided. MIT is actually one of a few schools that is need blind for even international students, but almost every top school is need blind for domestic students these days. They want to have a fina…

Yeah, I'm not suggesting that they would have done anything nefarious with that information. I'm just saying I liked the transparency of the Cambridge system. You'd hold an admission letter in your hand before anyone had asked any questions about money, making it very transparent that money had nothing to do with that decision. The possibility that you could end up in a situation of having an offer but no money would still exists, but then at least you'd know that that's what happened. If you put all the info on one form you have to basically just trust them to handle the information appropriately.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#66

Post by caddemon » Mon, May 31, 2021, 12:37 PM UTC

gyulai wrote: post #65

caddemon wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe things were different in 2004, but those forms do not cross paths with admissions decisions whatsoever, for at least the last decade. The financial aid office won't communicate with admissions until offers have been decided. MIT is actually one of a few schools that is need blind for even international students, but almost every top school is need blind for domestic students these days. They want to have a fina…

Yeah, I'm not suggesting that they would have done anything nefarious with that information. I'm just saying I liked the transparency of the Cambridge system. You'd hold an admission letter in your hand before anyone had asked any questions about money, making it very transparent that money had nothing to do with that decision. The possibility that you could end up in a situation of having an offer but no money would…

Yeah I guess also the sticker price of Oxbridge being lower may make this the better choice. Even though the majority of students don't pay the list price at top US schools it is a really daunting number, and so for low income students not familiar with the process I can imagine getting an offer without any info about aid would be more stressful.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#67

Post by cafard » Mon, May 31, 2021, 12:37 PM UTC

iratic0 wrote: post #7

mmmrk wrote: post #2

I'm currently reading Taleb's Antifragility book and he strikes a similar tune: The education system being little more than a way to cement social status, with actual innovation and entrepreneurship largely taking place outside it. Wealth leads to education, not the other way around. I find this topic fascinating and it makes me see discussions about underfunded education systems and universities from a different ang…

"Wealth leads to education". This is how it used to be. The "Liberal" Arts were named so as the sort of people who studied them had freedom from normal labour. Then came the push in the 80s to 00s to get more working class kids into higher education, so they could have the same opportunities as upper class folk, thinking education leads to wealth. Instead we've just ended up with a bunch of working class kids graduat…

Boomer here. A number of my professors (at a so-so school in the US West) came from at best lower middle class families and went through college on the GI Bill. One of the better ones had been something like a signalman in the Navy, another (a star from whom I never took a class) did enlisted service in the USAAF, I think.

Alvin Kernan, who had a long career in academia, wrote in the early pages of his memoir In Plato's Cave of the influx of men like himself, attending college on the GI Bill in the late 1940s.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#68

Post by traloid » Mon, May 31, 2021, 12:47 PM UTC

approxim8ion wrote: post #42

lightgreen wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You find my statements dangerous, I find the idea of viewing everyone as competition equally so. It all rounds out I guess.

That's because you know you cannot compete. Ironically, this kind of crab-in-the-bucket egalitarianism is a form of selfish self-interest on your part.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#69

Post by stablenode » Mon, May 31, 2021, 12:54 PM UTC

AlexSW wrote: post #52

I went to a state school and state sixth form, and my experience definitely deviates from that presented in the article and some other comments here. I think the part of the article which focuses on more personalised teaching rings the most true for me. There may be differences due to the subject, level, or college. I did a one-year masters in STEM in a very international graduate Oxford college. But the vast majorit…

Similar story here. Perhaps arts degrees are different, but I could not relate this piece to any of my experiences from when I was studying for a CS degree. It felt as though the author was writing about a different country.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#70

Post by approxim8ion » Mon, May 31, 2021, 12:56 PM UTC

traloid wrote: post #68

approxim8ion wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You find my statements dangerous, I find the idea of viewing everyone as competition equally so. It all rounds out I guess.

That's because you know you cannot compete. Ironically, this kind of crab-in-the-bucket egalitarianism is a form of selfish self-interest on your part.

I'm 'competing' plenty by staying afloat and providing for my family every single day, thank you very much. And yes, sure. Call it what you want, but I don't want myself or anyone to have to 'compete' to prove their worth.