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What Oxford taught me about posh people

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Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#51
post #4

My life goal was to attend one of these elite universities. I desired to work at companies such as Google or Apple. After graduating from the Czech Technical University I realized that 1. I am much less special then I thought 2. There is much more hard working focused average people then the few talented superstars, both usually achieving the same 3. Surprisingly many of the exceptionally smart people in my social bu…

Regarding 6. sometimes companies, especially start-ups hire those people not for their abilities, but to be able to tell investors they hire top uni educated workforce. They are more for PR than actual work. Sometimes it is frustrating, if they get paid the same as people who actually do work.

Ugh this has become common in Silicon Valley. “We have a brilliant team of engineers who previously worked at FAANGUberAirBnB”…it’s sickening.

So is what the companies say about their board members and their C suite. I guess it could just be a reflection of facts but I fear this will lead to future startups hiring purely on this sort of credentialisms.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#52
I went to a state school and state sixth form, and my experience definitely deviates from that presented in the article and some other comments here. I think the part of the article which focuses on more personalised teaching rings the most true for me.

There may be differences due to the subject, level, or college. I did a one-year masters in STEM in a very international graduate Oxford college. But the vast majority of members of the college were hard working, insightful, friendly, and not at all posh. There was a very friendly and open social life, and I definitely don't consider there to have been a great facade presented. Perhaps I would have found different in an undergraduate degree in the arts, or a different college, but I didn't get that sense from the people I spoke to from other colleges and faculties. My best guess is the Oxford college the article writer ended up in was rather more grand and snobby than any of those I spent time at.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that this certainly isn't the only experience, and I'm confident none of the friends I made there would relate to the article's assessment. I found it a fantastic place to meet insightful, honest, friendly people in addition to all of its merits for learning.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#53
post #10

I've studied in Cambridge myself, and feel like some context needs to be added here for American readers not to misunderstand something here: Admission to Cambridge & Oxford isn't related to family wealth in the same way as admission to "elite" universities in the U.S. For example: Tuition fees are in line with government-set rates and are no different for these institutions than other British universities (at least…

Cambridge And Oxford and a few other “elite” unis don’t allow students to work during the school year afaik, this alone filters many students but “ironically” not the poorest ones which may be eligible for a full tuition cover + stipend.

Low income families above the low income limit set by the government who cannot afford tuition + covering living expenses tend to be those who can’t really afford to attend those schools and this includes a lot of what would normally be considered middle class.

Yes you can take a loan but Cambridge and Oxford as notoriously expensive to live around, student accommodation aren’t cheap and the overall cost of living is quite high.

So you tend to skew towards either those who have money or families which planned for this from the get go, a few token poor people but quite a few of those that come from an “average” household.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#55
post #45

The UK has made an export industry out of this snobbery and attracts hundreds of thousands of international students for this prestige. I wonder if ethologists have studied this behavior. Queen bees are not selected with an IQ test, they re selected randomly and raised by the plebs to become their queen.It's a successful strategy evidently. I guess something similar might work in primates where the random selection i…

I’m not so sure. The Queen bees responsibilities as a “leader” are literally just to stay alive and reproduce. Most primate leaders have a lot more responsibilities which they need to excel at. Maybe statistically they still turn out to not matter? Would be interesting to know.

> which they need to excel at.

they usually need to keep themselves in power / get reelected. Not necessarily a criterion of excellence.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#56
post #10

I've studied in Cambridge myself, and feel like some context needs to be added here for American readers not to misunderstand something here: Admission to Cambridge & Oxford isn't related to family wealth in the same way as admission to "elite" universities in the U.S. For example: Tuition fees are in line with government-set rates and are no different for these institutions than other British universities (at least…

Cambridge And Oxford and a few other “elite” unis don’t allow students to work during the school year afaik, this alone filters many students but “ironically” not the poorest ones which may be eligible for a full tuition cover + stipend. Low income families above the low income limit set by the government who cannot afford tuition + covering living expenses tend to be those who can’t really afford to attend those sch…

Cambridge at the very least provides reasonably affordable accommodation for all years of your undergraduate degree. And some colleges provide accommodation for Masters and PhD students as well.

The UK student loan is not perfect, but it does include a living stipend (which is family income based). Obviously it sucks to have to take a loan, but working is not a necessity (until after graduation). I’m not sure how reasonable the living stipend amounts are, but Cambridge is definitely reasonably affordable if you go out of the way for groceries etc. It’s a bit more expensive from a nightlife perspective, but again, college bars tend to have fairly cheap drinks.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#57
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't remember being asked about wealth on college apps. Are you thinking of the FAFSA, which is a government form, and not part of the application process?

I was thinking of the M.I.T. application form circa 2004. I seem to recall that it explicitly asked not just if I had enough money but to disclose how much money I had precisely, and it also explicitly asked if there were family members who had attended M.I.T.

Maybe things were different in 2004, but those forms do not cross paths with admissions decisions whatsoever, for at least the last decade. The financial aid office won't communicate with admissions until offers have been decided. MIT is actually one of a few schools that is need blind for even international students, but almost every top school is need blind for domestic students these days. They want to have a financial aid package available to offer at the same time as admissions, which makes sense, so submitting your financial info prior to acceptance would be necessary for that.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#58
post #10

I've studied in Cambridge myself, and feel like some context needs to be added here for American readers not to misunderstand something here: Admission to Cambridge & Oxford isn't related to family wealth in the same way as admission to "elite" universities in the U.S. For example: Tuition fees are in line with government-set rates and are no different for these institutions than other British universities (at least…

Cambridge And Oxford and a few other “elite” unis don’t allow students to work during the school year afaik, this alone filters many students but “ironically” not the poorest ones which may be eligible for a full tuition cover + stipend. Low income families above the low income limit set by the government who cannot afford tuition + covering living expenses tend to be those who can’t really afford to attend those sch…

That's not only a side effect, but a stated principle: After you gain admission, you have to prove that you have the money you need to sustain yourself either through a scholarship, or you have to literally show a bank statement that shows that you have a lump sum in your account that will sustain you for the normal amount of time it takes to finish the degree. Living expenses are factored into this at a set rate. You are not allowed to rely on funds you intend on earning while you're actually studying.

I don't think this is all that wrong: If you are dependent on working to be able to cover your living expenses, it takes time away from your studies, which reduces the likelihood you'll pass, increases the likelihood of needing more time to get to a degree. Needing more time, means having to spend more time with low-paid jobs to sustain yourself until you get to the degree, and it all adds up to a risk that's difficult to manage for the student, and universities definitely don't want the drop-out rate that results from that.

You wouldn't start building a house when it's uncertain that you have enough money to be able to complete the project.

The way to manage the social ramifications is by keeping tution rates low and providing scholarships. Cost of living is not something you can control particularly well although, at Oxbridge, they at least do what they can on that front through university-owned housing etc. Also: Those are university towns that don't have cost of living and rents spiralling out of control as a side-effect of other industries that are there, like is the case in the Bay Area or Boston, which is a major metropolitan area even without the universities.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#59
post #27
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also comp educated and went to Oxford. I feel like in the last 5 years or so it's become "uncool" to be posh. Feel like this has been instigated by (in the West) Brexit and Trump bringing the Establishment down a notch.

I think that's true, but amongst posh people, it's always been cool to be posh, but pretend to be not posh. Out of interest, what did you study at Oxford?

I think it more than just "poshness" that has taken a hit, trust in experts also has. I would argue that this is why casual podcasts have become a lot more popular recently, whilst the BBC has has become less trusted (an has changed its tone to adapt with the times).

I studied Physics 2011-2014

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#60
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cambridge And Oxford and a few other “elite” unis don’t allow students to work during the school year afaik, this alone filters many students but “ironically” not the poorest ones which may be eligible for a full tuition cover + stipend. Low income families above the low income limit set by the government who cannot afford tuition + covering living expenses tend to be those who can’t really afford to attend those sch…

Cambridge at the very least provides reasonably affordable accommodation for all years of your undergraduate degree. And some colleges provide accommodation for Masters and PhD students as well. The UK student loan is not perfect, but it does include a living stipend (which is family income based). Obviously it sucks to have to take a loan, but working is not a necessity (until after graduation). I’m not sure how rea…

The loans aren’t great if you are a student not living with their parents and studying outside of London if your parents have a household has a combined income of £45,000 you will be eligible for only £6000 p/a grant.

If we take a £80,000 combined household income which won’t go that far in London especially if the family has more than one child and still paying for a mortgage or what is becoming more and more common these days rent. And while 80K is more than double the median household income this literally can be the salary of say two teachers or police officers with some seniority then you are only eligible for £4000.

For Cambridge last time I checked student accommodations cost £150-200 p/w at the minimum. That more or less your loan gone on housing alone.

The university itself requires the students to have £10,000 (well £9880) per year for living expenses this means that a family making £40K needs to add about £4K or 10% of their pre-tax income to their child’s education even with the stipend.

It’s possible sure but many families simply can’t afford that. And more importantly because students are required to show proof of funds the parents would have to prove that they have that money ready and quite possibly for the entire duration of the degree if their income is too low for the uni to consider them to be able to afford support.

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