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NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

bbc.com

131–140 of 182 posts

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#131
post #112
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Syria civil war was a CIA operation to oust Bashar al-Assad. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore Libya civil war also probably CIA. And then you have Iraq. These wars created multiple migration crises to Europe. And not only that, by funding and training rebels in Syria it lead to a hotbed for terrorist, some of these terrorist slipped into Europe and committed terrorist attacks, like the Paris 2015 attacks…

If it was, it certainly was a failed CIA operation. No but honestly: while the US had some interest with the Kurds, they didn't engage to cause the Syrian civil war nor did they were able to stop Russia from gaining influence. And I am not really sure if your mixing up ISIS supporters in your narrative. I haven't heard that they were links to the CIA for any terror in Europe connected to Syria.

CIA trained and funded rebel groups, some ended up fighting alongside Al-Nusra (Al-Qaida in Syria). US weapons also ended up with Al-Nusra. In the same way there where islamist rebel groups in Libyan civil war (LIFG) and CIA did clandestine operations during that time too with different rebel groups.

And every US bombing campaign against the Syra regime de facto helped ISIL/ISIS.

Turkey, a NATO member, trained their own rebel groups and also made sure to have allow every jihadi to pass into Syria. Turkey is strongly anti-kurd. (Parts of this jihadi militia was this year sent to Azerbaijan by Turkey to fight against the Christian Armenians)

It is almost impossible for us outsiders to know what rebel group fought with what group and what objectives CIA actually had, however just the fact that US helped create a terrorist hotbed in Syria, together with a NATO ally, which in turn lead to terrorist attacks in Europe. Or the terrorist hotbed that was sprung up in Libya after the fall of Gaddafi.

Depending on the level of trust you have for American intelligence services you could either say that because of unintended consequences it resulted in terrorist attacks due to incompetent management or that working with the enemy of my enemy is part of their tactics and collateral damage is part of the game.

On the surface it looks like a failure for CIA because Bashar al-Assad is still in power, however it was not a failure for the coalition behind US/CIA, like Israel and Saudi Arabia, e.g. Israel has now permanently annexed the Golan Heights from Syria. Syria war was proxy war against Iran, which is an ongoing conflict between Saudi Arabia and Iran, see the Yemen war.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#132
post #66

It is one thing that intelligence services is monitoring specific actions that are important to national security. However, along the way, Lockheed Martin and friends and the jobs provided by them became national security. These two things are important to keep separate to understand the debate that is going on here. So this is Danish intelligence services helping Boeing securing contracts against Airbus and Saab. Th…

Part of the context here is that Denmark like so many small European companies allowed the American military industrial complex to infiltrate it's military and security services to the point where it cannot actually operate independently an hence have to say yes when this kind of request comes in they cannot really refuse.

And this is by design as the US military "tech transfer" projects like the JSF/F-35 is explicitly designed to lock recipients into an bond with the US military/strategic establishment.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#133
post #74

Why Europe does not develop a new system to encode/encrypt communications?, that would make tapping the line useless.

No new systems need to be developed, only a will to deploy existing systems. To the best of public knowledge, Curve25519 with AES-GCM or ChaCha20-Poly1305 is good enough to keep the NSA out for years. These are available in TLS, OpenVPN, and WireGuard. Longer term, TLS, OpenVPN, and WireGuard all need to standardize post-quantum key exchange (such as Chrome's TLS experiment to run Curve25519 and RLWE key agreement pr…

The math behind encryption cannot be broken. But the implementations can. When you have so many math PhDs attacking crypto implementations, you are bound to find a bug you can exploit. Look how long heartbleed was around.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#135
post #32

This all boils down to the question of how to reign in the administrative state, and the problem here is that no one really wants to reign it in, they want to control it and point it in the direction they prefer, that is, they want an extra-judicial, extra-legislative source of power to exist, but just not do any of the things they don't like. But I don't think this is possible, once you have an administrative state,…

Missing a few steps between "having an administrative state" and "spy on everyone" there, buddy.

One of the steps was included, the comment notes:

> ...the problem here is that no one really wants to reign it in...

Why shouldn't it spy on people? If the state is fundamentally on our side, that is a win (fuzzy abstract principles like privacy vs. concrete benefits like stopping specific illegal activity). Ditto if the state is neutral. We have no need to keep secrets from a neutral but fundamentally principled entity. Privacy isn't really important enough to worry about if there are just a few bad actors working individually. It'd be a battle of a luxury (privacy) vs a need (security)

It is only because the state is fundamentally not on our side that people should be trying to reign it in and use concepts like privacy to do so. At some point any information the state has will be used by your political adversaries to attack.

Privacy (from the state) isn't worth anything if the starting point is that the administrative state will be a reliable, proper and responsible bearer of power.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#136

I'm unsure what of this information is new. It sounds like the EU just found nine sources to confirm one aspect of the Snowden leak? Were people ever really doubting the authenticity of those documents? I'm sure some people have, but it never seemed like a common realistic belief.

That sounds about right, as I read it. The sources seem to be 9 (former?) employees, confirming a classified internal report from 2015.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how's thats working out so far?

Actually it was going reasonably well for 2 or 3 centuries, the mass spying is a recent development. Thus the correct question to ask is "why/how did we break the system that used to work"

People who develop hardware and software made it possible.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#139
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember the golden rule: He who has the gold makes the rules.

Or the nuclear arsenal which sits on your side. Most of Europe has effectively outsourced its military defence to the Americans with some plain, visible costs (the at least 2% of GDP in military expenditure the previous US president was so keen about) and, more importantly, there are also some other, hidden costs, like the Assange scandal and stuff like this Danish - NSA cooperation.

"Most of Europe has effectively outsourced its military defence to the Americans"

Only if we abandon the oxford dictionary and head over to DoD where defence means "defend ourselves, our allies, or our interests, or the interests of our allies" which is basically power projection.

You don't need 11 carriers to defend yourself, you need them to play world police, support Japan in conflict with China, etc. You could argue it's necessary, but that's a different argument.

EU taken together has a larger airforce and navy than Russia does, army has better training and equipment. China is too far away to be a credible threat. France has it's own nukes and missiles. All of Europe, whereever one might draw those borders, is larger still.

The only credible counter argument is that EU military is not united and doesn't act as one, but whether Latvia will spend 2% or 200% GDP they can't beat Russia.

Recently the UK has gotten 2 carriers, with a lot of lobbying from US, while at the same time cutting ground troops and army equipment, so we are sacrificing European defence for power projection.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#140

Everyones angry at Denmark for enabling, but US did the spying... Not saying that clears DK, but at least 90% of the outrage should be directed there.

US is outside and can spy whatever they want, Denmark on the other way is "in theory" part of the European-Family, if a "friend" sells you out to someone else, who is the traitor?
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