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Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

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Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#481

Post by distances »

aydwi wrote: post #410
distances wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is open box always a return for you then? I got a coffee scale with obvious usage stains on it from Amazon, but honestly it works fine and a quick cleanup was much easier than a return.

It is for me. I am quite conscientious and I expect others to do their jobs at least as per the prescription, if not scrupulously. "New" means "new" to me, no exceptions. As a matter of fact, I would go to great lengths in order to return or replace the coffee scale if that happened to me. It places my mind at peace to have things exactly as I expect them to be.

Fair enough. I'm quite happy to take the used product if it's flawless, in my mind that's a bit less waste produced by my lifestyle.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#482

Post by musingsole »

cm2187 wrote: post #480
an_opabinia wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid of being downvoted, but the algorithm for an Amazon return looks something like: Your LTV = Forecasting total revenue from your transactions so far Revenue = The sum of your past transactions Refund? = LTV - Revenue - Refund Cost > 0 This is a much simpler, much more logical model. It appears everywhere, like with credit card disputes or when you get service discounts to not leave. Because when you don't g…

I don’t think that’s the case. I spent tens of thousands of dollars on amazon over the years and had a similar bad experience than the author. I doubt they treat customers differently depending on how much they spend on the site.

While they may not do so exactly in the manner described by the GP, it's naive to think Amazon doesn't give differential treatment to select customers for reasons directly related to income from those customers.

Behaving otherwise would just be shooting yourself in the foot for weird ideas of fairness.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#483

Post by mlyle »

an_opabinia wrote: post #378
ageitgey wrote: post #215

Like most people, I've ordered a lot of packages (hundreds?) on Amazon and almost never had a problem. In the rare case of a problem, Amazon would instantly refund me. But almost all those orders are under $1000. Everything changes when you have a problem with an expensive order. Amazon has a price threshold where the support system is different and the normal CS people are powerless. During lockdown, I ordered a Son…

I'm afraid of being downvoted, but the algorithm for an Amazon return looks something like: Your LTV = Forecasting total revenue from your transactions so far Revenue = The sum of your past transactions Refund? = LTV - Revenue - Refund Cost > 0 This is a much simpler, much more logical model. It appears everywhere, like with credit card disputes or when you get service discounts to not leave. Because when you don't g…

"LTV model of 'justice' here is, in my opinion, a lot lot better"

Sure, it is, when you're rich. If you're some poor bastard who's scrimped up a whole lot of money to buy an expensive item, and Amazon figures you won't spend much money in the future, you get ripped off.

There's a couple of externalities you've left out, too, because your LTV doesn't predict them:

* Reputational costs

* Risk of adverse legal outcomes, where you decline to provide deserved refunds after failing to deliver merchandise.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#484

Post by mancerayder »

I went to NewEgg (in the U.S.) for electronics item orders but some of the complaints about electronics, like expensive Nvidia cards going missing or whatnot, I've seen complaints for with NewEgg. Third party shippers, quality control issues are rife in reviews. In fact I ordered almost 3K of computer equipment from NewEgg that got stolen on my stoop as USPS threw it on a sidewalk in a giant city here, which was promptly stolen by a miscreant. NewEgg made me go to the police a couple of times but they did issue a replacement. So it's a mixed bag - they should have forced signature required.

NewEgg > Amazon for computer equipment but the jury seems out. Any other alternatives for expensive PC parts?

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#485

Post by matsemann »

judge2020 wrote: post #452
dcolkitt wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't true. Any promise is sufficient for consideration. Cash doesn't actually have to change hands for a contract to be in effect. If this wasn't the case then every single financial futures contract or swap would be null and void. These contracts incur no cash flow on day one. They're merely a promise by one part to pay another based on some event in the future. If your legal theory was true, then one party co…

then you would only be able to sue over damages, and with a roof maybe your only damages are the time spent planning and getting the permits to get the roof done, but if TSLA hadn’t even started ripping off the roof then I don’t see what damages you could claim against them (TSLA’s legal team surely weighed the possibility of a class action lawsuit).

The damage is one had a deal to pay X for a roof. If they can't fulfill their end of the deal, the damage is the difference between X and what have to be paid to get what was promised (either from them or a different provider).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cover_(law)

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#486

Post by rantwasp »

wpietri wrote: post #428
ageitgey wrote: post #215

Like most people, I've ordered a lot of packages (hundreds?) on Amazon and almost never had a problem. In the rare case of a problem, Amazon would instantly refund me. But almost all those orders are under $1000. Everything changes when you have a problem with an expensive order. Amazon has a price threshold where the support system is different and the normal CS people are powerless. During lockdown, I ordered a Son…

Perfectly believable. The thing I really loved about Amazon is that they had their act together. But that has declined drastically over the decades; now whenever I actually have to deal with them it seems like there's a ton of internal chaos. In June 2018, I ordered a soccer magazine, "Futbol Total", for my soccer-mad nephew. It said it would arrive in 4-16 weeks, which seemed weird. I waited it out, and no magazine.…

so, at what point is legitimate to involve the Credit Card company? you don’t even need to actually do it, tell cs you will do it unless it gets here in x days.

issue a chargeback and move on.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#487

Post by ruph123 »

kevindong wrote: post #448
ruph123 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the reason for this is more consumer friendly laws? In the EU you can return any* online/telephone ordered purchase within 14 days (among other laws). *Exceptions are software, digital products, etc.

It's not mandated anywhere in US law, but the vast majority of reputable retailers (e.g. Walmart, Amazon, Target etc.) have very generous return policies. They're usually far more generous than 14 days. As you might expect, there are of course reasonable limitations (e.g. customized products, digital products, etc.). Amazon: 30 days https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=... Walmart: 90 days http…

Yet very often they charge restocking fees which is unheard of here. And also these policies are up to their discretion. As you can see in e.g. Walmart’s policy they reserve the right to decline the refund. Better to have a guarantee by having it in the law. Again as stated before, Amazon is known to shut down accounts for returning too often.

E.g.: https://www.wsj.com/articles/banned-from-amazon-the-shoppers...

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#488

Post by eeegnu »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #475
tlogan wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is 100% correct. Even our small business have rules like this: good customers will get refunds, discounts, etc. Bad ones (pathological ones) - we just try to get rid of them ASAP and no refunds. Because we do not want them to use our service anyway. At the very beginning we were thinking that good vs bad should also include our support costs - not just LTV. But that is amazingly correlated: high LTV means that u…

> Bad ones (pathological ones) - we just try to get rid of them ASAP and no refunds. A customer "not buying much" is not "bad". If you accept his money for cheap stuff, he is your customer. There's a difference between an honest customer who usually doesn't buy much and then buys something expensive and is getting sadly scammed and a customer trying to rob you. If you accept the customer for cheap stuff but refuse to…

> If you accept the customer for cheap stuff but refuse to help him when he gets scammed on an expensive item, you are the bad, pathological, person/business.

For every refund system you will unfortunately get people who attempt to game that system. They'll buy many negligible cost items without issue, then a single high cost item that they'll claim never arrived hoping they've outsmarted the store or algorithm. These bad actors are why honest consumers have a hard time. I don't know what a business can do to actually differentiate the two.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#489

Post by tlogan »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #475
tlogan wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is 100% correct. Even our small business have rules like this: good customers will get refunds, discounts, etc. Bad ones (pathological ones) - we just try to get rid of them ASAP and no refunds. Because we do not want them to use our service anyway. At the very beginning we were thinking that good vs bad should also include our support costs - not just LTV. But that is amazingly correlated: high LTV means that u…

> Bad ones (pathological ones) - we just try to get rid of them ASAP and no refunds. A customer "not buying much" is not "bad". If you accept his money for cheap stuff, he is your customer. There's a difference between an honest customer who usually doesn't buy much and then buys something expensive and is getting sadly scammed and a customer trying to rob you. If you accept the customer for cheap stuff but refuse to…

Sure. Amazon should equally value customers who buy $2 gadgets per year as ones who buys $2000 per year. But somehow business owners (restaurants, SaaS, retail, etc.) learn that complains and refunds from cheap customers are much more common and complaints are not polite. I really do not know why and I did not believe in that. But when you run business you learn fast.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#490

Post by ryandrake »

dsomers wrote: post #326
rkalla wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like others have said - be careful with this option - there are a LOT Of examples in the Google Fi forums about people doing a chargeback with Google because of charges they felt were fair or fraudulent via Google Fi, and next thing they know their Google Account (Photos, Docs, Email, etc.) is disabled. I would watch the same thing with Amazon (Music, Alexa, Photos, AWS, etc.)

All the more reason to not use these companies for anything that’s even moderately important.

Exactly. If you are at the point where your only recourse is chargeback, then you are at a bridge-burning moment. The company has treated you so badly that you’re willing to light the relationship on fire. Why on earth would you want to continue being a customer of that company? I’ve done a few chargebacks in my life and they were all against scum-of-the-earth companies I would never do business with again.
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