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Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

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Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#61

Post by llaolleh »

kaydub wrote: post #14
totalZero wrote: post #5

I would try to gently put them on the back foot when they offer a wage. When you receive the offer, you should comment on the differential between expected and offered wage, even if you intend to accept. For example, you might say with a gently puzzled tone, "this is lower than what I would ideally be earning, based on my experience and capabilities. Can you explain how you came to this number?" You may be able to pu…

Your question resonates a bit with the "Never Split the Difference" method of asking an open ended question immediately after receiving an offer. "Can you explain how you came to this number?" is similar to the "How am I supposed to do this?" kind of open ended question the author uses as an example. Happy you posted this, feel like an idiot that I've never thought of using that exact phrase lol.

Never Split the Difference is a great book.

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#62

Post by sgtnoodle »

nprateem wrote: post #17
excitednumber wrote: post #7

My 2c: never name the price first. If they undercut you, act extremely shocked. always ask for higher than you're willing to settle for. Ask for things in the margins at the last minute. Another vacation day. An upgrade on some ergonomic equipment. Etc.

Absolutely the worst advice. Whoever names the price first psychologically anchors the discussion around that price. Name a high price first and they'll have to justify their lower price so they're more likely to go to the top of their range (you know employers have a pay range right?). Let them name a much lower price first and you'll have to work hard to justify a much higher rate.

I've had good success both ways. If you have less leverage, I'd say avoid naming a price first. If you clearly have the upper hand, then it doesn't really matter.

To get the best deal possible, you have to be willing to walk away. Higher risk, higher reward. It's also really important to be polite, friendly and honest (a little bit of bluffing is ok though) the whole process. You really do need to do the research beforehand to know what's reasonable to ask for. The other side did.

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#63

Post by SMAAART »

Premise: I am a decent negotiator, I have negotiated my fair share of deals, from salaries, to buying stuff around the world markers, to VC rounds. I believe that negotiations is about leverage and not bluffing, about fairness and about negotiating/exchanging informations.

Having said that, if you asked $40 and they are thinking in the $30 range, if I were in the company's shoes I would not extend an offer, since:

1. if there's too much disparity, you would not be happy (no allegiance) and you'd stil be looking for something else

AND/OR

2. if you asked a too high fee, there's no genuinity in your dealings/negotiation

Alas, that's me.

If they come back with $30 and you believe that "I am from South Asia and even $30/h is a very big deal", just take it.

If you want to negotiate more, just say nothing, act a bit surprised, and tell them that you'll have to think about it. Let some time go by, anywhere between 1/2 and 1 business day, then ask them if they could raise the offer. If they don't... counter something higher, $33 or $35, and see how it goes, you might have to settle half way or... at $30.

Beware that when negotiating the other party might actually walk away from the deal.

When I am seeking for a job, usually I make is so that I have 2 or more offers on the table. When I am hiring someone (employee or contractor) I make sure I have 2 or 3 suitable candidates that would fulfill the position.

YMMV

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#64

Post by sgtnoodle »

nprateem wrote: post #57
notahacker wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Name a high price first and they'll either have to justify their lower price or walk away altogether . Or if you don't have enough knowledge of what you're worth to them, maybe you miss out on an even higher initial offer they were willing to make. Whether it's best to anchor really depends on whether you can accurately estimate the top end of what they'll actually be willing to offer, or know they aggressively lowba…

You really want them to refuse your initial price and haggle. Then you know you're getting a good deal and couldn't have got any more. A little research and justification goes a long way.

I dunno, I've seen folk negotiate up to salaries that they probably would have never gotten an initial offer had they started with that amount.

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#65

Post by westoque »

Disclaimer, I'm a CTO.

Here's how I evaluate this if I was evaluating you:

1. I already have a salary budget already allocated for this role based on industry average for position and location (but location _could_ be irrelevant depending on skill mostly).

2. I look at your skillset and put you at the bucket for the position where you are at: low-med-high

3. I make my offer based on my evaluation.

4. If you are "worth it", meaning in the high bucket, then I would go out of my way to give you a good offer, up to max of my budget or to match how much you are asking. Else, I would say the offer is where it stands and either you take it or don't.

But to answer your question, it doesn't hurt to push back as long as you are confident in your skills and know your value is worth more. That one you have to make up for yourself by evaluating yourself with peers and other factors.

Oh. And if you do push back, make sure to give a good reason why it is so. For example, if I happened to put you in the low bucket, I might have evaluated you wrong or the tests did not show much of your skill, then make sure to outline why you deserve that salary increase with good reason. As a quick example, if the industry average in where you are is $50,000 and you are offered $30,000 which is the starting for a junior, you can say that you've been developing for awhile with at least 5 years experience and that $50,000 would be a fair salary etc etc.

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#66

Post by sgtnoodle »

misiti3780 wrote: post #48
croisillon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i understand the psychology behind it but it's also a bit dangerous: where i work (europe) we don't even engage when the candidates claim a much higher rate than what we would agree on

Presumably you're probably filtering out extremely talented engineers that know what they are worth then?

Perhaps? They could also be filtering out candidates that lack adequate self awareness.

Hiring in many ways relies on heuristics, and isn't perfect.

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#67

Post by rubicon33 »

Buttons840 wrote: post #41
kaydub wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your question resonates a bit with the "Never Split the Difference" method of asking an open ended question immediately after receiving an offer. "Can you explain how you came to this number?" is similar to the "How am I supposed to do this?" kind of open ended question the author uses as an example. Happy you posted this, feel like an idiot that I've never thought of using that exact phrase lol.

Another question might be something like: I know you need to pay me less than the value I create, because this needs to be a mutually profitable arrangement. How much value do you expect I can bring to the company? Or maybe the more open ended question is better? I do like Never Split the Difference, great book. The most common complaint against it is that the author is a bit arrogant, but having read a couple other…

> I know you need to pay me less than the value I create, because this needs to be a mutually profitable arrangement.

This is the most awkward thing you could say.

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#68

Post by HelloNurse »

pm90 wrote: post #49
gmanis wrote: post #37

Can I give you a honest opinion since I was in a similar situation some time ago? Just take the $30-35 whatever offer they give and do the best work you can. In the long run, if you’re good, they will come around and you can get a better deserved rate. Having said that, $30 is a great hourly rate for South Asia (I’m from there), and will mean a lot of quick financial buffer and it helps stress wise. We aren’t in US a…

> In the long run, if you’re good, they will come around and you can get a better deserved rate. No. The chances of this happening are extremely low. If a US based company is trying to hire in South Asia, almost certainly they’re trying to keep costs down. Try to get as good a deal as you can during signing, and then renegotiate after to get an even better deal if you know you’ve provided that much value. Don’t leave…

In the long and short run, a better deserved rate will be offered by a competitor, not by a company who doesn't value the employee very much.

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#70

Post by devoutsalsa »

Ozzie_osman wrote: post #38
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #22

> The question is, when they offer me with a lower rate how should I deal with the situation so that I don't loose the position and get away with the best deal? There are no guarantees in negotiation. Projecting confidence and being willing to walk away from a lowball offer will help you negotiate. If you give the impression that you have no other options and that you will be taking the job even at the lower price, t…

Yea! The best way to negotiate is to have leverage. You can fake leverage, of course, but that's where the risk of losing the deal materializes. So rather than fake leverage, create it. Get other job offers.

To expand on that, there are two obvious forms of leverage:

- have another offer

- have a job that’s better the offer you get

In my experience, having the job is easier timing wise. When Company A wants to extend you an offer, you can’t really get Company B to accelerate their hiring most of the time (and pushing them might just make them say you should take the other offer).

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