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Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

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Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#41
post #14

I would try to gently put them on the back foot when they offer a wage. When you receive the offer, you should comment on the differential between expected and offered wage, even if you intend to accept. For example, you might say with a gently puzzled tone, "this is lower than what I would ideally be earning, based on my experience and capabilities. Can you explain how you came to this number?" You may be able to pu…

Your question resonates a bit with the "Never Split the Difference" method of asking an open ended question immediately after receiving an offer. "Can you explain how you came to this number?" is similar to the "How am I supposed to do this?" kind of open ended question the author uses as an example. Happy you posted this, feel like an idiot that I've never thought of using that exact phrase lol.

Another question might be something like: I know you need to pay me less than the value I create, because this needs to be a mutually profitable arrangement. How much value do you expect I can bring to the company?

Or maybe the more open ended question is better?

I do like Never Split the Difference, great book. The most common complaint against it is that the author is a bit arrogant, but having read a couple other negotiation books first, I found the author's approach more fair and "real" than the bag-of-manipulative-tricks I found in the other books.

Also, since it's the CTO your talking to, try to establish an (for lack of a better term) "tech people versus the rest of the world" mentality, then he will be more likely to side with you. As we've all seen, people side with their own perceived group. I don't mean this to be as aggressive as it sounds, just try to use the natural camaraderie between tech workers.

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#42
They already expect you negotiating the offer that's why they lowballed on your expectations. 40 to 30 is already 1/4th of a cut in negotiations.

Just call them up and say all the nice things like great company, thanks for taking time, but then start counting your strengths and finally say that I think I bring a lot more value and these were my expectations and please think and talk about this internally and let me know.

They will most probably come back with a higher number.

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#43
post #37

Can I give you a honest opinion since I was in a similar situation some time ago? Just take the $30-35 whatever offer they give and do the best work you can. In the long run, if you’re good, they will come around and you can get a better deserved rate. Having said that, $30 is a great hourly rate for South Asia (I’m from there), and will mean a lot of quick financial buffer and it helps stress wise. We aren’t in US a…

6 months of potential time and money lost is a high cost for treating it as an experiment.

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#44
post #15
post #9

I have a similar question - If I am applying for a remote position, is it justifiable to ask for the average salary of the country the company is incorporated at, even if living cost in current country is much cheaper? I know that some remote first companies (such as Gitlab) has a complex salary calculator which takes into account all sorts of things, while some companies (like oxide.computer) pays a flat compensatio…

Working for a company where the salary is based on location means when you eventually go to meet up (at a retreat, a conference, etc) you will know that you're paid much less than your colleagues for the same work. That will suck. Avoid those companies.

I was in this situation: the (remote) company paid based on location, but also they paid about 2-3x as much as top companies from my country, and definitely 3-4x as much as what I earned in the previous job (local company).

Just want to say that it doesn't need to be all bad.

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#45
Okay, cool, you are expecting an offer — congratulations — and you are trying to figure out how much you “should” get paid - i.e. what’s the market price for you, and how you’ll feel if you get offered less, and how to get the best price.

To figure out how much you should get paid, you need to understand what labor market *you* are in first. Then you’ll need to understand what labor market the company is in.

Just to remind you, $40/hr for a high quality frontend dev is exceedingly cheap in the US. Especially if it’s truly an hourly rate, not a contractor rate. FAANG companies all in pay at least probably $165k/yr + benefits (so call it at least $100/hr) for a solid junior frontend dev. Startups that don’t pay that must compete with better stock offers, interesting and compelling idea / mission / founder team.

So, do you meet the standards that would let you charge this rate? Broadly speaking that means: excellent English and communication skills, ability to live and work in the US, top-tier educational background, good to very good engineering skills, and relatively young.

If you don’t meet this profile, then you need to look at another market to assess your own current potential. I’d probably check out fiverr, toptal and upwork right now, today, and check out what people “like you” charge on those sites. You will probably be surprised to see a really big range for frontend dev. I’m guessing $15/hr to $225/hr at least at upwork. What’s the difference? Quality, communication, speed of work, oh, and also the really big one - picking good customers. The best paid engineers pick great companies to work for, and you should consider this carefully while you decide what to do about an offer.

As a side note, you may find that people like you are typically charging 25-30/hr on upwork, and that might help you feel good about a lower offer from the company.

I’m going to read between the lines from your report and say that the CTO was not lying - It sounds like they routinely hire people with your background for less than $40/hr. As you said, you were lying (to him) when you said you’d only take $40, and I would guess that getting this offer would put you in a much better position than your local peers or vis-a-vis your current gig. So, at some level, don’t worry - your first job is to get the gig, then get the best price.

Given this, the first thing to say is that you should be friendly with the recruiters and get an offer, any offer. Once the company has made an offer, they will be emotionally locked in on recruiting you.

While you’re waiting for this offer, you should know there are three types of US companies who do this kind of outsource distributed team type recruiting - some of them provide low value technology work - usually contracting services, sometimes just bad startup ideas. Some of them provide high value technology work - better contracting or good startup ideas. Some of them are principled super high value companies (like github say). You are not being recruited by the last one. Generally I would expect that a well run “high value” company like this would have a different conversation with you than just grinding you down on price through shock, so I think you should understand you’ll likely be working for a company that has to watch its margins.

For instance, if the company makes $100k/yr off each dev, that’s a very different amount of negotiating room for you than if they make $1mm/year off each dev. You should try and figure out what situation you’re in.

With all this in your mind, when you get that offer, holding in your mind the fact that you can go get rolling at upwork or toptal tomorrow and if they lowball you, and you still want the job, you can just start out saying “Thanks, the offer is exciting, the company is great, I want to start tomorrow, but can you explain how I can accept this number?” And, then wait. You could ask that a few times. It’s not no. It’s just “please tell me the reasons I should accept.” You could say “The CTO said my fair rate was super high for your company; do your frontend devs ever get paid at that rate? It seems well below market to me for where the company is located.” These are powerful questions and they signal you’re thinking about your value to the company as well as the labor market.

Psychologically, even if they are like “25/hr or GTFO”, you can say “Look, I’m worth more than that. Let’s do this, I’ll take $25/hr for a two months. That’s long enough to assess me, and for me to assess you and make sure I want to continue. Make me an offer that ratchets up to $40/hr in two months; you can let me go at the two month mark if you’re unhappy.” That doesn’t cost you anything - the company can almost certainly still just fire you regardless — but it solves the company problem: hiring in budget, and they will definitely make more than $15/hr from you if you are any good. So, this sort of counter can be effective. And, paired with “How can I say yes to this offer which doesn’t even promise you’ll get me to a fair number ever? How can I do that?” Will make anybody but the most sociopathic of recruiters feel something.

Good luck!

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#46

My 2c: never name the price first. If they undercut you, act extremely shocked. always ask for higher than you're willing to settle for. Ask for things in the margins at the last minute. Another vacation day. An upgrade on some ergonomic equipment. Etc.

Absolutely the worst advice. Whoever names the price first psychologically anchors the discussion around that price. Name a high price first and they'll have to justify their lower price so they're more likely to go to the top of their range (you know employers have a pay range right?). Let them name a much lower price first and you'll have to work hard to justify a much higher rate.

Name a high price first and they'll either have to justify their lower price or walk away altogether . Or if you don't have enough knowledge of what you're worth to them, maybe you miss out on an even higher initial offer they were willing to make.

Whether it's best to anchor really depends on whether you can accurately estimate the top end of what they'll actually be willing to offer, or know they aggressively lowball everyone.

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#47
post #35
post #3

This is the best single source of information on the topic: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ I’d just read through that.

Literally opened thread to also post this. Summary (for OP or anyone else reading): assuming you bring a useful skillset and are likely to actually argue over $30/hr or $40/hr rates, you should charge more . Do not assume $50/hr is off the table, if you bring that much value. Do not assume $100/hr is off the table, if you bring that much value. Do not assume $150/hr is off the table, if you bring that much value . Po…

That’s not the entire truth. At some point marginal cost versus other options comes into play, especially if I’m in a business with generally fixed rates for work (like outsourcing/contracting.)

The OP should negotiate up (especially if they have data on comparable pay they can use), but what others in the market with comparable skill are willing to take also matters.

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#48

When negotiating salary, always throw the first figure, and make it higher than you expect. It's called anchoring (read about it in Thinking Fast and Slow). It is a lot easier to come down to 120->100/hr then it is to come up from 50->100/hr. This can be applied to selling/buying a home and a lot of other things.

i understand the psychology behind it but it's also a bit dangerous: where i work (europe) we don't even engage when the candidates claim a much higher rate than what we would agree on

Presumably you're probably filtering out extremely talented engineers that know what they are worth then?

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#49
post #37

Can I give you a honest opinion since I was in a similar situation some time ago? Just take the $30-35 whatever offer they give and do the best work you can. In the long run, if you’re good, they will come around and you can get a better deserved rate. Having said that, $30 is a great hourly rate for South Asia (I’m from there), and will mean a lot of quick financial buffer and it helps stress wise. We aren’t in US a…

> In the long run, if you’re good, they will come around and you can get a better deserved rate.

No. The chances of this happening are extremely low. If a US based company is trying to hire in South Asia, almost certainly they’re trying to keep costs down.

Try to get as good a deal as you can during signing, and then renegotiate after to get an even better deal if you know you’ve provided that much value. Don’t leave money on the table.

The hiring market is insanely hot right now, don’t let it go to waste.

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#50
Others have pointed out that your main point in negotiation is that you bring $X in value to the company so you should be paid something based on $X but I think there are some other questions to be resolved too:

- Does the company _need_ $X in value? That is, perhaps you're overqualified for the position and it's in their interests to employ a cheaper developer. You might need to convince them that they really do need (and need to pay for) the skills you have.

- Is your desired hourly rate competitive globally? If they're looking at remote developers, perhaps you could be undercut by somebody in India or Eastern Europe or even somebody in your own country.

- What is the position worth to _you_? If you reject their offer, what does it cost you? What's the delta between your current earnings and their proposal? How easy is it for you to find another job and do you expect similar pay?

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