Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Berlins new techno beat. why international tech startups should move to berlin.

cnbcmagazine.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 43 posts

Re: Berlins new techno beat. why international tech startups should move to berlin.

#31

Post by martin_k »

tylee78 wrote: post #27

berlin?? everyone is leaving berlin. It's the worst place to do business in. it has been mismanaged for decades now. crime rate is high. public schools are a disaster. if you are 20 something you might find the dirt and parties hip, but as soon as you have a family it's the worst place you could think of (unless you have a lot of money). for a tech company better cities are munich and hamburg if you really want to re…

Hamburg and Munich are among the most expensive places in Europe. Living costs in Berlin are probably half (you can rent a place for under 200 EUR if you wnat). There is also a much better startup and developer scene. So if you are into the whole startup thing, Berlin is pretty great.

And the crime rate, schools, ... compared to the US? Really? ;)

Re: Berlins new techno beat. why international tech startups should move to berlin.

#32

Post by hussong »

tylee78 wrote: post #27

berlin?? everyone is leaving berlin. It's the worst place to do business in. it has been mismanaged for decades now. crime rate is high. public schools are a disaster. if you are 20 something you might find the dirt and parties hip, but as soon as you have a family it's the worst place you could think of (unless you have a lot of money). for a tech company better cities are munich and hamburg if you really want to re…

When you're doing a startup, chances are that a huge part of your team will be 20-somethings who love the Berlin dirt and parties.

Re: Berlins new techno beat. why international tech startups should move to berlin.

#33

Post by veyron »

BvS wrote: post #28
veyron wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Choosing the best state based on tax considerations oftentimes reduces tax bill by at least 5% of your net profits. Now, lets say you are making 2M per year. 5% = 100K, which is more than enough to hire another programmer!

I would rather start up in a nice city andy worry about taxes once I'm making 2M a year in profits than risking to live somewhere less enjoyable without knowing if I will ever have to pay taxes anyway.

I agree with the mentality to some extent, but taxes actually matter when you try to bootstrap without a steady income backing you

I'm bootstrapping in NYC, for which there are a multitude of taxes and other costs:

- Rent is insane, of course :)

- LLC Newspaper Publication requirement (why this exists is beyond me)

- Large sales taxes (although ST 121.3 ensures you are tax exempt on hardware)

Re: Berlins new techno beat. why international tech startups should move to berlin.

#34

Post by Locke1689 »

martin_k wrote: post #30
Locke1689 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US it costs maybe a couple hundred bucks and a week or so to set up an LLC and an S-corp( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S_corporation ). How much would this cost and how long would it take in the EU?

The minimum share capital of a GmbH in Germany is 25,000 EUR. Registering should not take much longer.

25,000 EUR is a fair bit of money, especially considering the avg. YC investment is < $20k, IIRC. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like a GmbH operates almost nothing like an S-corp.

Re: Berlins new techno beat. why international tech startups should move to berlin.

#35

Post by econgeeker »

timxpp wrote: post #13
econgeeker wrote: post #10

The nice thing for europeans is that if you're part of the eurozone, you can live and work wherever you like. A business doesn't have to be domiciled in the same location as its headquarters or employees. In the US, many businesses are domiciled in Deleware with no employees in that state. But I think the question for Hacker News, or at least for the Hackers who are interested in doing startups outside the USA is-- w…

Is saving a few % of taxes that important for an IT company?

A high tax jurisdiction will charge, often, %40 of profits at the corporate level and then another %40 at the personal level. So, for every $100k you bring in, corporate taxes reduce it to $60k and personal income taxes reduce it to $36k.

A low tax jurisdiction would might charge %10 corporate taxes and %10 personal taxes, meaning that for $100k in income you're left with $81k.

I think more than doubling your net income is worth consideration, especially if it means the difference between being able to afford to continue your startup, or having to go and "get a real job".

Re: Berlins new techno beat. why international tech startups should move to berlin.

#36

Post by econgeeker »

BvS wrote: post #28
veyron wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Choosing the best state based on tax considerations oftentimes reduces tax bill by at least 5% of your net profits. Now, lets say you are making 2M per year. 5% = 100K, which is more than enough to hire another programmer!

I would rather start up in a nice city andy worry about taxes once I'm making 2M a year in profits than risking to live somewhere less enjoyable without knowing if I will ever have to pay taxes anyway.

You don't have to choose between a nice place and low taxes. high taxes and regulations can give you cities like detroit and chicago while low taxes and regulation can give you cities like hong kong, monaco, panama city, etc.

In fact, the point of my comment is that the business could be located in a low tax jurisdiction, resulting in more funds flowing to the bottom line, while the owners and employees could be located somewhere they like, even a high tax jurisdiction if they wanted.

Re: Berlins new techno beat. why international tech startups should move to berlin.

#37

Post by timxpp »

jeremydavid wrote: post #25
timxpp wrote: post #9

Not to forget: Instant(!!!) green card for anyone earning more than 65000 Euros/year. The only issue I still have is the "awful German language" ;-) http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html (Mark Twain's 1880 book A Tramp Abroad.)

Can you please elaborate on the 65000 Euro "green card"? I have been looking for a way to move to Berlin for many years, and have never come across this. I would be delighted if this is the way!

Yes, it is actually this simple: Find someone willing to hire you for 66000 Euro or more yearly salary (65 above was wrong) and you will get a working permit without much problems. The "only" problem is to find a job paying this salary.

Re: Berlins new techno beat. why international tech startups should move to berlin.

#38

Post by mdariani »

hussong wrote: post #5
chadp wrote: post #2

glaring omissions from the article what are the personal and corp tax rates? (high!) and how easy is it to hire and fire employees (hard I hear). No one doubts the nightlife and leafy suburbs of germany are nice

Personal tax rates are higher, at the same time you get better (and cheaper) healthcare. Corporate tax rates are indeed higher in Germany. At the same time, there are lots of funding opportunities for startups from communal, national and EU business development programs, that can be seen as sort of a tax break. Hiring is probably harder, since programmers are generally less interested in startups and prefer safe corp…

firing employees is in germany not really difficult, especially not for startups. every employee must serve a 3-6 months test period until he gets a professional contract. during the test period you will see, if the employee is performing well or not and you can fire the person easily the next day, if you want.

and hiring people in germany is much easier than in the valley or in new york, where you have huge competition from the big ones like google, facebook etc...

Re: Berlins new techno beat. why international tech startups should move to berlin.

#39

Post by mdariani »

tylee78 wrote: post #27

berlin?? everyone is leaving berlin. It's the worst place to do business in. it has been mismanaged for decades now. crime rate is high. public schools are a disaster. if you are 20 something you might find the dirt and parties hip, but as soon as you have a family it's the worst place you could think of (unless you have a lot of money). for a tech company better cities are munich and hamburg if you really want to re…

so tylee78: where did you get the information that everybody is leaving berlin? what kind of people you are talking about? it seems you haven't read the article. berlin is booming. every week two new startups are launching. berlin has two airports from where you can get to every other destination on this planet. berlin has several good universities and huge amount of young talented people. even academics from the best universities in germany (whu, ebs, hhl, mannheim etc.) and even from the U.S. (e.g. Research Gate - forunder moved from harvard to berlin) are moving to this city, because it is a perfect environment to create a new company on a low level of costs.

berlin isn't more dirty than hamburg or munich. berlin is just a huge city, where some parts are of course dirty, but it is the same for munich, hamburg, new york and san francisco too. berlin is the place to be in europe, if you want to setup a tech startup. if you care more about other things, you really shouldn't start a tech startup.

Post reply on HN