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Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

reuters.com

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Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#21

Post by LeoPanthera »

bpodgursky wrote: post #11
dragontamer wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's all sorts of rumors for why Elon / Tesla is doing this. The most probable rumor IMO is that the chip-shortage has hit the Tesla radar especially hard. Instead of idling plants (like other automakers https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/ford-idles-f-150-plan... ), Tesla decided to cut out the radar entirely. That means cars can be produced, and sold, without these radars / chips.

Tesla has been pushing camera-only autonomous driving (ditching LIDAR) since well before the chip shortage. I would assume this is part of the same drive.

Tesla is ditching radar, not lidar.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#22

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

tobyjsullivan wrote: post #8
TameAntelope wrote: post #3

I'm having trouble figuring out if this is just another battle in Elon's War with Regulators, if this is NHTSA being too slow to keep up with evolving technology, or if Teslas without radar are actually worse, deserving the loss of these designations. Or what the mix is of all three of those things, I guess.

My read is it's just the NHTSA not granting a certification for things it hasn't tested. Ie, "forward collision warning, lane departure warning, crash imminent braking and dynamic brake support" without radar. Tesla will release the new versions (if they haven't already), the NHTSA will test the new models, and they'll grant the "check marks" again. In other words, it's non-news (unless you happen to be planning to b…

> Tesla will release the new versions (if they haven't already), the NHTSA will test the new models, and they'll grant the "check marks" again.

Shouldn't this operate in the other direction?

Vehicle manufacturer supplies model for testing, regulator either approves it gives manufacturer opportunity to fix then retest?

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#23

Post by zests »

dragontamer wrote: post #7
TameAntelope wrote: post #3

I'm having trouble figuring out if this is just another battle in Elon's War with Regulators, if this is NHTSA being too slow to keep up with evolving technology, or if Teslas without radar are actually worse, deserving the loss of these designations. Or what the mix is of all three of those things, I guess.

There's all sorts of rumors for why Elon / Tesla is doing this. The most probable rumor IMO is that the chip-shortage has hit the Tesla radar especially hard. Instead of idling plants (like other automakers https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/ford-idles-f-150-plan... ), Tesla decided to cut out the radar entirely. That means cars can be produced, and sold, without these radars / chips.

This is the kind of shenanigans that a software company would pull. On the surface it seems like a great business decision from Tesla.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#24

Post by wedn3sday »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #15
TameAntelope wrote: post #3

I'm having trouble figuring out if this is just another battle in Elon's War with Regulators, if this is NHTSA being too slow to keep up with evolving technology, or if Teslas without radar are actually worse, deserving the loss of these designations. Or what the mix is of all three of those things, I guess.

NHTSA tested Tesla cars that had radar modules. Tesla has decided to remove the radar modules and use only vision systems. The new vision-only models are not NHTSA certified yet, so the NHTSA had to clarify that the safety certification only applies to vehicles shipped before the vision-only transition. That is, any vehicle with radar is still certified, but the new vehicles will apparently ship untested.

Thank for the clarification, this makes perfect sense.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#25

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

akerl_ wrote: post #4
tapoxi wrote: post #2

Why are they removing these features from a car with a promise of patching them back in later? Shouldn’t that be ready to go before committing to a hardware change?

Because the actual change is driven by supply chain issues w/ radar gear, and the vision-is-better party line is just to make it sell better.

Can someone tell me if SpaceX's tail-landing rockets are vision-only systems?

Street vehicle navigation seems at least as difficult as nailing a rocket landing.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#26

Post by headmelted »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #15
TameAntelope wrote: post #3

I'm having trouble figuring out if this is just another battle in Elon's War with Regulators, if this is NHTSA being too slow to keep up with evolving technology, or if Teslas without radar are actually worse, deserving the loss of these designations. Or what the mix is of all three of those things, I guess.

NHTSA tested Tesla cars that had radar modules. Tesla has decided to remove the radar modules and use only vision systems. The new vision-only models are not NHTSA certified yet, so the NHTSA had to clarify that the safety certification only applies to vehicles shipped before the vision-only transition. That is, any vehicle with radar is still certified, but the new vehicles will apparently ship untested.

It sounds from reading the article like existing cars with the radar are also losing the features though, to be replaced by camera-based solutions? (I assume to keep consistent with newer models on the road without the radar).

I may be reading it wrong - happy to be corrected.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#27

Post by chronic83027 »

- Tesla is lacking radar modules due to chip shortage

- As a result, Tesla can’t make vehicles

- Tesla (as always) is cutting it close to making a profit

- Therefore, sell cars without radar

- This “profit squeeze” is corroborated by this week’s (May 27) increase in vehicle prices by $500-$2,000, the reintroduction of enhanced autopilot for $4,000 and Elon trying to pump n dump crypto again with his “crypto eco-oversight committee”

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#28

Post by nradov »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #15
TameAntelope wrote: post #3

I'm having trouble figuring out if this is just another battle in Elon's War with Regulators, if this is NHTSA being too slow to keep up with evolving technology, or if Teslas without radar are actually worse, deserving the loss of these designations. Or what the mix is of all three of those things, I guess.

NHTSA tested Tesla cars that had radar modules. Tesla has decided to remove the radar modules and use only vision systems. The new vision-only models are not NHTSA certified yet, so the NHTSA had to clarify that the safety certification only applies to vehicles shipped before the vision-only transition. That is, any vehicle with radar is still certified, but the new vehicles will apparently ship untested.

And it is possible to meet NHTSA certification requirements for recommended safety technology with vision-only systems. Subaru has done that for years.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#29

Post by ocdtrekkie »

tobyjsullivan wrote: post #8
TameAntelope wrote: post #3

I'm having trouble figuring out if this is just another battle in Elon's War with Regulators, if this is NHTSA being too slow to keep up with evolving technology, or if Teslas without radar are actually worse, deserving the loss of these designations. Or what the mix is of all three of those things, I guess.

My read is it's just the NHTSA not granting a certification for things it hasn't tested. Ie, "forward collision warning, lane departure warning, crash imminent braking and dynamic brake support" without radar. Tesla will release the new versions (if they haven't already), the NHTSA will test the new models, and they'll grant the "check marks" again. In other words, it's non-news (unless you happen to be planning to b…

Bear in mind, there are safety features actually being dropped for this change: https://www.tesla.com/support/transitioning-tesla-vision

"Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance may be disabled at delivery"

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#30

Post by akerl_ »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #9

TL;DR: Tesla is removing radar from vehicles to transition to a vision-only system. They will ship vision-only cars before NHTSA has tested them, so the NHTSA can't certify untested vehicles. > Newer Tesla Model 3 and Model Y vehicles will no longer be labeled as having some advanced safety features after the automaker said it was removing radar sensors to transition to a camera-based Autopilot system

Notably, even Tesla says that the vision-only cars will ship with reduced safety features which they’ll backfill later via software update.

Given how long they’ve been promising that the FSD beta rollout is right around the corner, I’m not holding my breath.

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