Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: What are some things you learnt from a game that changed your life?

news.ycombinator.com

81–90 of 91 posts

Re: Ask HN: What are some things you learnt from a game that changed your life?

#81
post #12

I played an online MMORPG called "Anarchy Online" (AO) while in my early twenties, probably for a little bit more than a year. At a dinner with friends, I started talking about the game and why I liked it. During that discussion, I came to the realization that even if I did absolutely nothing "productive" in the game, I always had access to food, clothes, health services and shelter. Things were organized in a way th…

Maybe it would be easier to slowly build to UI - kind of like leveling up a character. - Universal health care would likely have the most impact on a lot of people and companies if there was a system to fund it across the board for basic health coverage (i.e. healthy visits, major events and mental health covered, progressive co-pays for other stuff) - In the US there already is universal education up to just before…

The useful thing about universal basic income is that you get to throw out all the inefficiencies of moderate/centrist policy.

No more deciding who is entitled to what. Just give everyone enough and let them go from there.

The thing that is holding us back from expanding the social programs we have is an obsessive fear of giving the undeserving "too much".

Re: Ask HN: What are some things you learnt from a game that changed your life?

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always feel this deep repulsion towards society. At first there was a time when people were free, they could grow what they wanted and live how they wanted nobody gave a damn because you cannot tell me what to do with my life. Then, as a society, you herd the population into cities where they can't grow their food, put the poor into forced service of the rich or they can't feed themselves or live. The poor lower cl…

> At first there was a time when people were free, they could grow what they wanted and live how they wanted nobody gave a damn because you cannot tell me what to do with my life. When exactly was that? Because you know, humans are apes. And we don't observe any apes, any monkeys, any primates which are free from their societal norms. So when exactly were humans (or any other kind of ape) entirely free? Before our an…

"When exactly was that? Because you know, humans are apes."

An ape can leave its group and move to a different territory and not have someone else decide his life for him.

If there is no path for being able to attempt self sustenance, to be able to live and grow your own food, to be able to choose what social group you want to be a part of, you are stuck in the game - you have to make money, whether you like it or not.

All other living creature on earth can get by just fine without having imaginary against their name in a database. The cruelty is in the fact that society holds and hoards all the resources that will let you live and will make those available only if you have those imaginary numbers. It is presented as being for the greater good of everyone, but in essence the whole system is put in place so people that don't have resources can be pressured to do the dirty work of the people that have the resources.

Re: Ask HN: What are some things you learnt from a game that changed your life?

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At first there was a time when people were free, they could grow what they wanted and live how they wanted nobody gave a damn because you cannot tell me what to do with my life. When exactly was that? Because you know, humans are apes. And we don't observe any apes, any monkeys, any primates which are free from their societal norms. So when exactly were humans (or any other kind of ape) entirely free? Before our an…

"When exactly was that? Because you know, humans are apes." An ape can leave its group and move to a different territory and not have someone else decide his life for him. If there is no path for being able to attempt self sustenance, to be able to live and grow your own food, to be able to choose what social group you want to be a part of, you are stuck in the game - you have to make money, whether you like it or no…

Fruits, rotten meat, mushrooms, roots - all of those are still in the jungle. What's holding you back from abandoning the achievements of modern society and embracing the livelihood of primitive, but "free" animal?

Re: Ask HN: What are some things you learnt from a game that changed your life?

#84
Dalmuiti is a card game where you depend on some luck(the cards you are served) & how you play them. It made me realise how most of what people call success is just the luck of birth. In the game if you were given shitty cards you are still very likely to lose & a lot of that is true about life. There’s a tiny chance that you can win with bad cards but you’ve got very little room for mistakes. This makes me think about the folks in SV who are mostly lucky to be born into great circumstances & much of their success had to do with that than they care to admit

Re: Ask HN: What are some things you learnt from a game that changed your life?

#85
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that you stretched the game analogy far beyond what reality allows for. Virtual avatars don't actually "need" anything. Sure, there are things you _want_ in the game. You won't freeze to death without clothing, you won't starve to death if you don't eat, and even if you did, you would just respawn. I think UBI as a model sucks, for a bunch of reasons. 1. It allows people to do nothing. People who are able sho…

> 1. It allows people to do nothing. People who are able should work. People who can't, we can help. But it shouldn't be an abusable system where one can simply say "I can't work" and no questions are asked. Everybody in society can't just say "I don't want to work" -- everything would fall apart if we did that. This is GP's entire point . Given the freedom to choose what to do, "do nothing" is not a common choice. I…

> This is GP's entire point. Given the freedom to choose what to do, "do nothing" is not a common choice. In a world where everyone has the option to say, "I don't want to work", most won't actually say that, especially in the long term.

Absolutely wrong? The U-3 unemployment rate always lags 3-7% behind the U-6: https://unemploymentdata.com/current-u6-unemployment-rate/

To suggest up to 7% of people just not looking for a job is "not a common choice" is terribly misleading. Even during good periods for the economy, the number sits around 4%. I don't expect that number to get smaller by adding UBI. Do you?

> Why fairness? The system we have now is incredibly unfair. UBI would at least provide more fairness by removing wage slavery.

Why not fairness? How many individuals can you speak to who have done _literally anything_ to invest in their career skills who are earning "wage slavery" levels of pay? If you're 30 years old, and the best thing you can do is make Subway sandwiches... what are you doing with your life?

> 2. Addictions are already putting people in poverty, and the best solution is recovery from those addictions. That recovery requires access to healthcare.

Access to healthcare and UBI are different discussions entirely. And often "access to healthcare" by itself is not sufficient to get people to stop being addicted. You actually have to hold them accountable. I recommend watching a documentary called "Seattle is Dying" [1] to see why just being nice is not a solution.

> 3. Children are people who can't really manage finances yet, so it's pretty obvious that their caretakers would be recipient to their income. People aren't having that many children, and wealthier parents tend to have significantly fewer children than parents who experience poverty. Remember you were a child once, too.

Ah, so we just give people more money to have more children. I don't see any problem with that - it clearly can't be abused.

> 4. Of course people who are working will earn more than they have to pay in taxes. It will look like less than they make today if you don't include their universal basic income, but it will be entirely (by definition) disposable income.

What point are you even making here? The money to pay for UBI has to come from somewhere. If it comes from taxes, the people who are working and making beyond some threshold will now be making less. And what is that threshold? $70k? $80k? $100k? If the government just prints more money, inflation becomes a concern and that impacts everybody.

> 4. There's no need to keep people honest in the first place. That's a key feature. You can only cheat social security if you aren't entitled to it, and literally everyone is entitled to UBI.

Uh... lol? Are you aware of many fradulent benefits were claimed over the last year or so of the pandemic [2]? Many of those claims were people stealing _other peoples'_ benefits, viable either because the recipient was dead, incapacitated, or in prison. There is no "feature" here.

> Prove it. I don't see any evidence to support that conclusion, and I see a wealth of evidence that contradicts it.

If you don't see the evidence, you haven't really been looking very hard. At any given moment in the US, 3% or more of our population could be working and isn't even looking for a job.

> The reality is that most people don't need to be working in the first place.

Says who?

> Right now, half of the wealth in the US is concentrated to only 50 individuals, yet most of the rest of us aren't experiencing scarcity.

Wealth concentration is an entirely different problem than UBI.

> Those who are don't choose to out of laziness.

There are absolutely people who are living in poverty because they are lazy. I can tell you that with certainty because I know people who fit that mold. And I can tell you, knowing people who actually work in social service roles, there are more than you think.

UBI is a non-starter for the same reason communism is. Humans are inherently greedy, and any system we operate in must account for that. Capitalism is effective precisely because it exploits that greed. It's not without its drawbacks, but nothing is.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpAi70WWBlw [2] https://reason.com/2021/02/22/there-has-been-a-mind-boggling...

Re: Ask HN: What are some things you learnt from a game that changed your life?

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At first there was a time when people were free, they could grow what they wanted and live how they wanted nobody gave a damn because you cannot tell me what to do with my life. When exactly was that? Because you know, humans are apes. And we don't observe any apes, any monkeys, any primates which are free from their societal norms. So when exactly were humans (or any other kind of ape) entirely free? Before our an…

"When exactly was that? Because you know, humans are apes." An ape can leave its group and move to a different territory and not have someone else decide his life for him. If there is no path for being able to attempt self sustenance, to be able to live and grow your own food, to be able to choose what social group you want to be a part of, you are stuck in the game - you have to make money, whether you like it or no…

> An ape can leave its group and move to a different territory and not have someone else decide his life for him.

Ah, the myth of the noble savage taken to evolutionary extreme.

I highly recommend Steven Pinker's "The Blank Slate" if you'd like to disabuse yourself of this pernicious old wives tale. Then his "Better angels of our nature" should fix you right up with a more accurate and informed view of the world and society we live in.

Re: Ask HN: What are some things you learnt from a game that changed your life?

#87
post #4

So far it sounds like the biggest (life) lessons are "they taught me not to waste time (and money) on addictive games." I actually like "educational" games (or gamified tutorials) like Rocksmith (guitar) and Duolingo (languages) because they drill you on skills that you can use outside the game. Action games (and musical instruments) seem to be good for manual dexterity and eye-hand coordination; I recall reading tha…

That last one is an interesting idea. I learned English as a 10yo with access to a PSX and FF7. Maybe it’s time to replay the same game now in French or Italian.

FF7 is my favourite videogame and I know it well. That context might help when learning a new language.

Re: Ask HN: What are some things you learnt from a game that changed your life?

#88
post #12

I played an online MMORPG called "Anarchy Online" (AO) while in my early twenties, probably for a little bit more than a year. At a dinner with friends, I started talking about the game and why I liked it. During that discussion, I came to the realization that even if I did absolutely nothing "productive" in the game, I always had access to food, clothes, health services and shelter. Things were organized in a way th…

I mean, the only downfall to this is that the fundamental resources you speak of “shelter, water, food...” in a game are infinite duplications of the same model with no “cost”. In the real world, that stuff isn’t an unlimited, instantaneous resource. Someone has to build that shelter, farm that food, etc. In order for this to work, we would need to find free labor... that hasn’t worked so well historically. And sure,…

I can only agree with in the way that the games do not exactly model "real life". I guess whoever had such a model would likely exploit it for personal gain rather than making a good video game.

Still, the better sophisticated MMORPGS (e.g. AO, or EVE) tend to mimick it as much as possible. Resources may seem unlimited at first sight but these games actually try to implement a universe that offers limited resources and a monetary system that responds to offer and demand, and may be subject to inflation/deflation. Failing to achieve this exposes game owners to attrition by loyal gamers (e.g. sudden price drops/increases in rare objects).

Also, AO was exposed to a hack that involved duplicating objects (I think it was in 2013), the exploitation of this vulnerability triggered a cascade of events that resulted in the deflation of the currency in the game and took months to be fixed. Again, this also raised attrition amongst gamers.

In some online universes, resources are scarce enough so that players engage in the trading of virtual goods through external transactions (i.e. virtual items paid through real money). This also tends to affect the internal currency in the game.

You mentioned the "shelter" example. I think this is where we get an analogy with State intervention (i.e. taxes) when the players do not allocate resources to actually set up theses infrastructures in the virtual universe.

I agree with you, it is an imperfect imitation of our world. But acknowledging this as formally insufficient/imperfect would require acknowledging that we actually understand what characterizes and constitutes our reality, and that we can somehow infer that a theoretical model is unsustainable without even testing it. I think that if I were to accept this, that would mean I surrender and stop believing there are better models :)

Re: Ask HN: What are some things you learnt from a game that changed your life?

#89
post #12

I played an online MMORPG called "Anarchy Online" (AO) while in my early twenties, probably for a little bit more than a year. At a dinner with friends, I started talking about the game and why I liked it. During that discussion, I came to the realization that even if I did absolutely nothing "productive" in the game, I always had access to food, clothes, health services and shelter. Things were organized in a way th…

Rutger Bregman has a book called Utopia for Realists. Quite a few successful studies on UBI - people become more productive, get better education, wean themselves off of addiction. It is an overall better investment than pretty much any other program - including because it doesn’t carry thenoverhead of controlling how money gets spent. It is cheaper to provide UBI than not.

Thank you for the reference. My only issue with his analysis was that he proposed an income in the form of a monetary payment. I think this is exactly why UBI is impossible and we should rather have universal service. In other words: one should not receive monetary payment but be granted unrestricted access to vital goods and services instead.

Re: Ask HN: What are some things you learnt from a game that changed your life?

#90
Playing games with moral-oriented storylines and choices has changed my attitude on life as a whole. Playing games with moral-oriented storylines and choices has changed my attitude on life as a whole. I play many games, right now I play CS:GO to improve my gaming skills and I always check csgo results at https://tips.gg/csgo/matches/ . Want to become a pro and start playing with a pro team.
Post reply on HN