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Microsoft president: Orwell’s 1984 could happen in 2024

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Microsoft president: Orwell’s 1984 could happen in 2024

#81

Post by Trasmatta »

Barrin92 wrote: post #58

My personal version of 1984 is someone smashing random quotes from 1984 into my face, forever. Has nobody seriously read another book in the last few decades? And Microsoft's president even gives us a stereotypically shoddy reading of the book > "You know the fundamental story…was about a government who could see everything that everyone did and hear everything that everyone said all the time. " The actually interest…

For me the fundamental story was about class. All of the principles of Ingsoc were intentionally crafted as a way to prevent the middle class from deposing the high class with the assistance of the low class.

The surveillance, propaganda, double think, cult of personality, eternal wars, Newspeak, etc, were all just a means to that end. That's the boot stamping on the face forever.

I think a lot of people skip over Emmanuel Goldstein's "book within a book" in 1984, but I feel like it's one of the most important parts of the entire thing, because of how it lays all of that out.

Re: Microsoft president: Orwell’s 1984 could happen in 2024

#82

Post by kbenson »

sidlls wrote: post #51
rdiddly wrote: post #26

I don't want to cast the central concern as trivial, because it's real, BUT, c'mon, "beating China in AI is imperative?" Grow up. To "beat" anybody (and for that matter to have any sort of claim to deserving to "win" anything), you would want to "beat China at Not-Being-A-Repressive-Dystopia" wouldn't you? Perhaps including "beating China at Not-Using-AI-To-Be-A-Repressive-Dystopia?"

To play a bit of devil’s advocate, “beating China at Not-Being-A-Repressive-Dystopia” requires ensuring China’s influence in the world is minimized or contained. It’s hard to beat them if they take over, in other words. (Note that this also requires defeating the same kinds of forces domestically.)

But isn't that begging the question?

Couldn't we just as easily say "beating China at not starting the zombie apocalypse" requires ensuring China doesn't invest in weird chemical experimentation with death and voodoo?

We're taking as a given that China's end state is a repressive dystopia, just as we would have to take as a given that China would start a zombie apocalypse. The only difference in one is seen as patently absurd by all people, and the other is only seen that way by some.

Re: Microsoft president: Orwell’s 1984 could happen in 2024

#83

Post by 8note »

sidlls wrote: post #51
rdiddly wrote: post #26

I don't want to cast the central concern as trivial, because it's real, BUT, c'mon, "beating China in AI is imperative?" Grow up. To "beat" anybody (and for that matter to have any sort of claim to deserving to "win" anything), you would want to "beat China at Not-Being-A-Repressive-Dystopia" wouldn't you? Perhaps including "beating China at Not-Using-AI-To-Be-A-Repressive-Dystopia?"

To play a bit of devil’s advocate, “beating China at Not-Being-A-Repressive-Dystopia” requires ensuring China’s influence in the world is minimized or contained. It’s hard to beat them if they take over, in other words. (Note that this also requires defeating the same kinds of forces domestically.)

If that containment involves forcing other countries to do your bidding, all you're doing is beating china at being a repressive dystopia

Re: Microsoft president: Orwell’s 1984 could happen in 2024

#84

Post by SapporoChris »

paxys wrote: post #59
rdiddly wrote: post #26

I don't want to cast the central concern as trivial, because it's real, BUT, c'mon, "beating China in AI is imperative?" Grow up. To "beat" anybody (and for that matter to have any sort of claim to deserving to "win" anything), you would want to "beat China at Not-Being-A-Repressive-Dystopia" wouldn't you? Perhaps including "beating China at Not-Using-AI-To-Be-A-Repressive-Dystopia?"

That is exactly what it is though. If this was 1940 and China was building a nuclear bomb, you wouldn't fight them by disarming yourself and promoting peace. You would build a bigger bomb first. If USA and others tightly regulate tech, and AI advancements in China continue unchecked, then in a few decades there will be no resisting them from doing literally whatever.

"You would build a bigger bomb" Or, you would make the enemy's bomb ineffective. I understand that history went with build a bigger bomb. But honestly, that's not the only option. It's a disservice to everyone to think that arms race is the only answer.

Re: Microsoft president: Orwell’s 1984 could happen in 2024

#85

Post by charcircuit »

alasdair_ wrote: post #74
charcircuit wrote: post #64

More surveillance is a good thing. With more data, the government can make better decisions and be more efficient. I don't think this is anything to be scared about.

I wasn't sure if you were being serious or not so I looked at your post history. Only a few days ago you posted that you didn't want to post more information because you wanted to avoid doxxing yourself. Surely you see the irony here?

There's a difference between doxxing yourself to random people on a place that is searchable and doxxing yourself to the government.

Re: Microsoft president: Orwell’s 1984 could happen in 2024

#86

Post by premium-komodo »

latch wrote: post #57
mjevans wrote: post #53

(It's already happening in current times;) China recently made a movie star apologize in public, to say effectively, 'Taiwan is not a country'. I don't care what the name is, but that island just a little bit off the coast of the big country known as China, should be recognized by the UN and member nations as a sovereign nation.

It's been a while since I read the book, but this seems like a stretch. One country imposing implicit/vague economic penalty on a citizen of another country, doesn't seem right relevant to me. When 1984 and "Orwellian" are used as a catch-all for any type of oppression or even any type of propaganda, I think it does a great disservice.

> When 1984 and "Orwellian" are used as a catch-all for any type of oppression or even any type of propaganda, I think it does a great disservice.

I agree, but it's not hard to make a stronger case. Organizations like Google, Facebook and Twitter centrally decide Truth, and then penalize anyone who posts anything in conflict with their version. Google censors the videos of people who dare to disagree with e.g. the WHO. Facebook deboosts "vaccine hesitancy"; Twitter sabotages the engagement of people with a diverse set of "wrong" opinions, degrades the various subnetworks by silently deleting followers, annotates tweets with the Official Truth, etc.

The same thing is done here on HN, a kind of filtering that assumes its own hypothesis. Someone posts something contrary to the prevailing story? Well, if it conflicts with the WHO, it must be conspiracy theory junk. I don't recognize this site, so I'm going to flag this article. People seem sure they know what the truth is, so they feel comfortable squashing anything that conflicts with their current understanding.

Re: Microsoft president: Orwell’s 1984 could happen in 2024

#87

Post by postpawl »

judge2020 wrote: post #75
postpawl wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t think AI is a “threat to democracy”? I think the threat isn’t just AI being used by governments to control citizens. Advertising companies want to influence behavior too, and their customers are mostly private corporations. They already have a lot of power and advertising is a $100+ Billion dollar industry for a reason.. it works. If you haven’t seen it, I’d encourage you to watch Can’t Get You Out of My He…

AI is as much a threat to democracy as the newspaper is - they eventually become the only means of input and politicians adapt to catering to them so that they can remain on a level playing field in terms of getting their policies and (potentially sensational) messages to people.

The issue is that AI is going to make it even more economical to bombard your target with coherent information through an extremely effective means of influence (writing). Have you seen some of the posts recently about AIs getting better at writing?: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27032828 It’s much more of a threat than a bogus newspaper. I can imagine a future where the signal is even more drowned out by noise. Think Twitter bots x1000.

Re: Microsoft president: Orwell’s 1984 could happen in 2024

#88

Post by charcircuit »

retrac wrote: post #68
charcircuit wrote: post #64

More surveillance is a good thing. With more data, the government can make better decisions and be more efficient. I don't think this is anything to be scared about.

As someone part of a group targeted by my own government until recently for rather ruthless suppression, I can't say I share your confidence in good outcomes.

The outcome would be beneficial to the government. The root of the problem is that the government is targeting you.

Re: Microsoft president: Orwell’s 1984 could happen in 2024

#89

Post by charcircuit »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #66
charcircuit wrote: post #64

More surveillance is a good thing. With more data, the government can make better decisions and be more efficient. I don't think this is anything to be scared about.

That same argument would prevent the right to privacy.

Privacy is dead.
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