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Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

rarehistoricalphotos.com

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Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#511

Post by selimthegrim »

refurb wrote: post #428
dundarious wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only see one other battle scene (NVA soldiers dash) aside from the Plain of Reeds photo.

The other photos are posed as well. The downed wreckage, the Ca Mau operating room in the swamp, the Lam Son 719 photo are well known photos that were staged. You can find similar photos from the Battle of Dien Bien Phu. The French POWs were asked/made to recreate the final battle for photographers. An Eastern Bloc country, I believe the USSR or East Germany, sent photo equipment and photographers to North Vietnam. T…

I’m pretty sure USSR published a photo book “Vietnamskiy Reportazh”

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#512

Post by cmmeur01 »

JPKab wrote: post #506
andrepd wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> promoted freedom as a cultural aspiration rather than rule by a monarch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in... Iran '53 and Guatemala '54 are some of my favourites, as is Timor.

Both Iran and Guatemala were operations undertaken by the CIA with absolutely no knowledge by the American public. You do understand this right? At no point were the American public consulted by the intelligence agencies when they did these operations. It's rather childish to retcon history by implying that declassified operations that were deeply unethical were endorsed by the American public at the time. These oper…

The fact that we had no knowledge was intentional and does not diminish the impact of the operations.

Let's compare Hong Kong and Guatemala, right now, and pick one to live in.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#513

Post by sandworm101 »

cozos wrote: post #502
geraneum wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that a “US Bad” view which paints everything America as evil is misguided. But also the other extreme which portraits US as a savior and protector is also not true. From the book: > American disinterest in the world means that American security guarantees are unlikely to be honored. Competitions held in check for the better part of a century will return. Wars of opportunism will come back into fashio…

Didn't we have that equilibrium (sorta) with USSR? I don't think it was a good kind of equilibrium - mutually assured destruction and all.

Nope. Pick any point in history and there was a huge imbalance between the sides. Often such "gaps" were unrecognized at the time, but each side would later learn that their perception of the other was incorrect. The "missile gap" and "bomber gap" were illusory. The public picture, the one on which budgets were based, was disconnected from the intelligence picture which was in turn often disconnected from the on-the-ground reality. Those involved at each stage of abstraction turned the information to suit their own needs. People who sold airplanes in the US counted extra bombers in the USSR. The people who drafted budgets counted more troops in the opposing army. In the end they all got what they wanted: massive spending on material.

An interesting example is the number of ICBMs programs on both sides. The engineering culture within the USSR meant that it had many different missile designs, some only ever resulting in a handful of missiles. Missiles would have short service lives and then be replaced by a new model. The Americans were different. They stuck to a smaller number of designs but mass produced and maintained them for decades. Both sides perceived that the other "had more missiles" because they were effectively counting them differently. The USSR saw American missile factories churning out missiles. The US saw a flood of new designs on parade and assumed they were being mass produced. Such cultural splits continue to inflate budgets today.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#514

Post by selimthegrim »

kumarvvr wrote: post #237
whimsicalism wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say we won Gulf war II, we've definitely lost Syria by now, Afghanistan probably lost. That said, many of the well-known, long haul conflicts that the US are involved in are the ones they are most likely to lose. The ones they win they usually win quickly and are less well known. There are plenty of interventions post-WWII that have been quick successes for the US, esp. in Latin America.

I would not classify Gulf war II as a "war". It was a blatant incursion, which even Saddam knew would not last, hence the focus on looting the victim, rather than planning for an occupation. Saddam bet that if no ones does anything concrete, he can get away with it, else, he can return back. I would call than an "occupation" rather than a "war". Edit : I retract my comment. I meant Gulf War I, the occupation of Kuwai…

People in USA usually call the war from 1980-88 “Iran-Iraq War” after 1991

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#515

Post by Dumblydorr »

cies wrote: post #398

The US is repeatedly on the wrong side of history. And they cannot even face that. Red scare. Supporting neo-liberal-to-fascist govts. Yelling democracy but then killing democratically chosen representatives when they do not "suit de US likings". Bitching about some "meddling" in their election when the history is full of US meddling in democratic process of other nations. Giving "foreign aid" to apartheid regimes. U…

While it is true that the US has done morally questionable and practically useless world-policing, it's not as cut and dry as you state. In both world wars, the US was undeniably a force for good, against the extremely evil Nazis, the extremely cruel Imperial Japanese, and helping more monetarily and supply wise in WW1. Furthermore, the US fought itself to free millions of slaves in it's own Civil War. While it's true the South attempted to leave to keep their slavery power, the other half of the US stomped them in the war.

Outside of militarism, the US has generally been cruelly expansionist against Native Americans, and has seen a lot of atrocities on "its own" soil. Yet the colonists eventually established a nation today that is pivotal to the arts, science, technology, and even human rights, humanitarianism, and large scale philanthropy.

How do we weigh all these? The US is not merely on the wrong side; we are a mixture of good and bad.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#516

Post by ClumsyPilot »

JPKab wrote: post #506
andrepd wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> promoted freedom as a cultural aspiration rather than rule by a monarch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in... Iran '53 and Guatemala '54 are some of my favourites, as is Timor.

Both Iran and Guatemala were operations undertaken by the CIA with absolutely no knowledge by the American public. You do understand this right? At no point were the American public consulted by the intelligence agencies when they did these operations. It's rather childish to retcon history by implying that declassified operations that were deeply unethical were endorsed by the American public at the time. These oper…

>"You do understand this right? At no point were the American public consulted by the intelligence agencies when they did these operations."

German public was not informed of the gas chambers, and Soviet public didnt endorse the gulag. So thet don't count then?

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#517

Post by cm2187 »

cies wrote: post #472
cm2187 wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the "right side" is a communist dictatorship?

https://www.fallacyfiles.org/eitheror.html

If you have a war between two sides and you are calling one the wrong side, you are creating a dichotomy

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#518

Post by thorin »

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #457
cies wrote: post #398

The US is repeatedly on the wrong side of history. And they cannot even face that. Red scare. Supporting neo-liberal-to-fascist govts. Yelling democracy but then killing democratically chosen representatives when they do not "suit de US likings". Bitching about some "meddling" in their election when the history is full of US meddling in democratic process of other nations. Giving "foreign aid" to apartheid regimes. U…

You have to admit though, the US does have a history of producing good music.

Not as good as the UK, and historically Germany and Austria, which have their own little problems in the past...

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#519

Post by bmmayer1 »

cies wrote: post #398

The US is repeatedly on the wrong side of history. And they cannot even face that. Red scare. Supporting neo-liberal-to-fascist govts. Yelling democracy but then killing democratically chosen representatives when they do not "suit de US likings". Bitching about some "meddling" in their election when the history is full of US meddling in democratic process of other nations. Giving "foreign aid" to apartheid regimes. U…

> repeatedly on the wrong side of history

Also repeatedly on the right side of history. It's really intellectually dishonest to ignore one over the other.

> they cannot even face that

I don't know who "they" are, but Americans are extremely self critical -- just look at this thread. It's also certainly the only of three global superpowers where citizens can be (and are) openly critical of their country's policies.

> Red scare

I'm sorry, have you ever lived in a communist country?

> Supporting neo-liberal-to-fascist govts

Yeah pretty much any time a country is a global superpower / police, it's going to make mistakes. But also, many governments the US has supported historically have had broad popular support on the ground, too, and the governments overthrown have been oppressive regimes. The regimes that take their place may often have also been oppressive, but that's not known without the benefit of hindsight. (Also there are legitimate victories in this camp too. Just ask any resident of South Korea.)

I could keep going, but it seems like your main beef with the US is that it operates like a global superpower pursuing its own domestic and international policy. I don't know what you think the world would look like under another superpower like China or Russia, but given the treatment of those countries _towards their own citizens_ in Chechnya, Crimea*, Uyghur Xinjiang, and Tibet, it's hard to imagine your or my life would be much better off under those global regimes.

I also challenge you to find a global superpower in world history that has yielded a more unshakeable global peace for almost a century.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#520

Post by JPKab »

cies wrote: post #462
roenxi wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no 'right' and 'wrong' side of history. There are complicated shades of grey coloured by propaganda. And if there was a right side of history, the US has a very credible claim to it. They've pushed science and the arts forward, promoted freedom as a cultural aspiration rather than rule by a monarch and generally acted as a credible supporting force for the greatest improvement of living standards the world h…

You say: > There is no 'right' and 'wrong' side of history. But then you conclude: > There was a lot of cruelty, bloodshed and lies. [...] The US could certainly have been much worse. So you do accept there's a gradient of right and wrong. > The US could certainly have been much worse. But also a lot better! > But there has not yet been anyone in history who avoided that while being large. What we've seen is next lev…

Bro you live in the Netherlands.

I have numerous Dutch friends who are not as young and foolish, and your perspective is not the mainstream one in that country.

Your nation was under occupation by the Nazis until the United States came in with the UK and made it otherwise.

Obviously that doesn't mean the United States isn't imperfect and of course it has tremendous flaws and has yet to live up to its true ideals in its founding documents. That being said there aren't American soldiers walking around outside your door right now.

Ask yourself if anyone in the EU will stand up for your nation?

Angela Merkel sat on her hands and did absolutely nothing when a Dutch jet liner was blown up by Russian weaponry in Eastern Ukraine. Hundreds of your fellow citizens died and nobody in Europe did a single thing. Sure, sanctions were procured and many other nasty letters but not a single Russian military asset was arrested or brought to justice. Hundreds of your countrymen are dead and nobody was ever held accountable for it. It was a war crime and there is no trial.

I look forward to the United States continuing to recede from its superpower status so that the world can finally realize what they were taking for granted. About half of the United States population spent the last 5 years talking about how terrible their government was. That makes the US unique compared to the other superpowers in the world which are authoritarian at their core.

I should hope that India will eventually step up and develop into a democratic superpower but until then you have no other options other than a toothless, useless Germany dominated EU. The EU couldn't even handle vaccines properly, so I'm sure they'll do very well in protecting your citizens from the realities of authoritarian superpowers.

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