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How inevitable is the concept of numbers?

writings.stephenwolfram.com

51–60 of 211 posts

Re: How inevitable is the concept of numbers?

#51

NASA found it simpler to explain numbers with hydrogen atoms than peano arithmetic for their voyager.

Interesting. Any source or context on this?

Not OP but I'm guessing OP is referring to the Voyager Golden Record attached to the first Voyager probe, specifically the playback instructions using hydrogen atom to derive time units for playing the record: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_Golden_Record#Playba...

Many of the ideas for the record came from Carl Sagan and a committee he lead working with NASA.

Re: How inevitable is the concept of numbers?

#52
post #11

When my two year old can't count the items in front of him he just says it's "many".

IIRC (edit: and as alluded in the article) there are languages which count as "one, two, three, many". But one two and three are also innate (immediately recognizable) quantities are they not? So does a person using such a number system actually count, or recognize and categorize only?

The piraha language is probably the most famous non-counting language. They appear to recognise - https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/10/piraha-cognitive-an...

Re: How inevitable is the concept of numbers?

#53

While the post covers quite a bit of ground, it feels (to me) like it conflates knowledge representation, language, biological systems (i.e., the messiness of implementation), computability, and realism. Regarding numbers in particular, there are a practically uncountably infinite number of mathematical truths that apply equally to numbers or to other abstract (non-numerical) mathematical ideas. I would rather see de…

> conflates knowledge representation, language, biological systems [...], computability, and realism.

You have pretty concisely described Wolfram's wheelhouse.

Re: How inevitable is the concept of numbers?

#54

If Mathematics is a language to describe reality, maybe numbers are not its whole alphabet. Inherent complexity, things that are not discrete, and emergent properties may not be described adequately with numbers, and maybe a different alphabet or even language is needed. Numbers may be (or not, it may depend on our biology) a good initial concept, but maybe something else may be developed, something more "correct" to…

Almost all of modern mathematics is not about numbers, although a lot of the objects studied can eventually be related to numbers in some way.

Re: How inevitable is the concept of numbers?

#55

If Mathematics is a language to describe reality, maybe numbers are not its whole alphabet. Inherent complexity, things that are not discrete, and emergent properties may not be described adequately with numbers, and maybe a different alphabet or even language is needed. Numbers may be (or not, it may depend on our biology) a good initial concept, but maybe something else may be developed, something more "correct" to…

> If Mathematics is a language to describe reality, maybe numbers are not its whole alphabet.

Who would claim they are? Mathematics initially co-evolved with our ideas of numbers, but many other important objects have been thought about for a very long time now.

Re: How inevitable is the concept of numbers?

#56

While the post covers quite a bit of ground, it feels (to me) like it conflates knowledge representation, language, biological systems (i.e., the messiness of implementation), computability, and realism. Regarding numbers in particular, there are a practically uncountably infinite number of mathematical truths that apply equally to numbers or to other abstract (non-numerical) mathematical ideas. I would rather see de…

While the post covers quite a bit of ground, it feels (to me) like it conflates knowledge representation, language, biological systems (i.e., the messiness of implementation), computability, and realism.

I understand that many of those well-developed fields which exist on their own terms, have standard methods, standard questions and standard approaches to moving towards answers.

The article jump between these fields to ask and grope for an answer to a simple question that in many ways can't be asked or answered in these fields.

One thing to consider is that present day computers can follow the mechanical production of mathematical propositions close to completely. But computers have a lot of trouble producing or following arguments like this, in "natural language", which have a definite logic to them but whose operation is not based on only explicit, codified rules.

Edit: To me, this sort of speculation is what philosophy actually should be doing. The questions that are "ill-defined but compelling" are the questions that have lead significant intellectual progress. How Zeno's paradox lead (or at least related) to the invention of calculus, how Einstein's thought experiments lead to relativity, etc.

Re: How inevitable is the concept of numbers?

#57
All structures in our universe are trees^. Numbers are a metalanguage for describing those trees. It is possible that there are other independent universes that we can't perceive, but I'd expect any aliens that we eventually interact with to be operating only in the treeverse, and so also be fluent in a language like our numbers.

^ Perhaps there are other independent universes out there that we don't perceive, but human brains are trees and all structures we can perceive and communicate about also are trees. We live in a treeverse.

Re: How inevitable is the concept of numbers?

#58
post #2

I can understand how natural numbers can be “constructed” (for lack of a better word) as a byproduct of counting, what I could never understood on a deeper level are negative numbers, I can’t see how a number i.e. a count can be lower than zero. Maybe related, while I can also partially understand multiplication (syntactic sugar for adding) I could never understand multiplication by zero, meaning how come when you mu…

So I'm no philosopher of math, but the intuitive way I think of it is that negative numbers are like borrowing a place holder.

Think about how electrical charge and currents work at the physical level. There's electrons, which have negative charge, or holes, which have positive charge. Holes are just an empty place an electron can go, rather than an extant particle.

Similarly, when we think of negative numbers in relation to counting numbers, we're just using a notational trick to keep track of a place holder or hole, a spot where a unary count can potentially go later to cancel it out.

There's a pretty fascinating book named Quantum Computing Since Democritus by Scott Aaronson, one of the leaders in that field. The idea of the book is "Could the ancient greeks have discovered quantum mechanics?"

Much of the higher level math in the book is past my familiarity, but the central theme is clear and intuitive: if you take ordinary probabilities, generalize them to allow negative probabilities, and then generalize those to allow complex numbers, out pops quantum mechanics quite naturally.

Why do these two generalization steps make sense? What the heck is a negative probability of an event? It's exactly just notational borrowing in the same sense as above. Why generalize to complex numbers? That's more tricky, but I think of it from two directions: 1. It allows you to model partial constructive and destructive interference of probabilities, rather than just simple union or intersection. 2. Complex numbers are algebraically closed, while more simple numbers are not. So it feels natural that our ultimate number system to model nature would need to extend all this way.

I realize some math heavy folks would find my way of thinking of this a bit hand wavy, but it really has helped me cut through the confusion and mystery. It also fits in very well with a bayesian perspective on probabilities.

This, the "fields are what's real" perspective on physics, and bayesian epistemology in general have greatly simplified the way I think of these big idea question topics.

Re: How inevitable is the concept of numbers?

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of the limitation of language there's only a countable number of mathematical truths that can be proven or written down. So for all practical purposes there's countably many.

Could you prove for every real value between 0 and 1 that it's greater than or equal to 0? That's an uncountable amount of proofs

It's not. It's a single proof about a set, a set that's assumed to be uncountable in standard ZF set theory.

The "axiom system" that (supposedly) contain a countable number of axioms. But these too are constructs of set theory. We still create proofs one by one of theories about axiom systems with infinite axiom - so we have a countable/enumerable set of such theories.

The proof systems to we can see or touch involve this enumerable properties. Perhaps you could change that with an analogue computer that a person could input "any" "quantity" into. But that's outside math as things stand.

Re: How inevitable is the concept of numbers?

#60
post #2

I can understand how natural numbers can be “constructed” (for lack of a better word) as a byproduct of counting, what I could never understood on a deeper level are negative numbers, I can’t see how a number i.e. a count can be lower than zero. Maybe related, while I can also partially understand multiplication (syntactic sugar for adding) I could never understand multiplication by zero, meaning how come when you mu…

I'm not sure if it is what you want, but Intuitionism [1] is one area that challenges modern fashions in Mathematical thinking. It suffered greatly under the formalist approach lead by David Hilbert and still has little main-stream support despite Gödel and his incompleteness proofs. Veritasium's latest video on Gödel's incompleteness [2] gives a pretty fair account of how we settled on the current fashionable founda…

I am somewhat familiar with the standard foundation of maths in set theory, and slightly less familiar with the program to ground maths in Category theory (although I do know a fair bit of category theory).

Maybe I am biased but I do not find the category theory foundations any less obtuse than the standard formulations. Like its pretty cool that you can do this stuff with category theory, but I think there is a reason the set theory was done first.

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