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EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

bbc.com

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Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#381

Post by baybal2 »

cnlevy wrote: post #299
unixhero wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That transit in Moscow can be risky to some politically exposed persons.

Russia and Belarus are very close allies. I doubt anyone who is at risk by transiting in Moscow would be safe in Minsk

> Russia and Belarus are very close allies. I doubt anyone who is at risk by transiting in Moscow would be safe in Minsk

You cannot really call them allies. Better to say its Beijing, and Pyongyang type relationship.

Lukasenka can't even sneeze without Kremlin's approval.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#382

Post by matkoniecz »

refactor_master wrote: post #183
londons_explore wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see a worldwide agreement that no country will ever stop a citizen from leaving, as long as they have permission to enter another country. Even if the person is in prison or debt, they can always leave with just themselves to another country willing to take them. If all nations agreed to that, we could stop worrying about most other human rights abuses, and country governance becomes more of a free market…

The free market has a pretty terrible track record when it comes to human rights, though. What would countries stand to gain from this, realistically? No country wants economic refugees.

> No country wants economic refugees.

Depends on cultural differences and their qualification.

For example basically noone complains about Ukrainian/Belarusian programmers working in Poland.

There is quite significant presence of Ukrainians in Poland and it is widely accepted and so far no major problems happened.

> On 14 September 2018, 33,624 Ukrainian citizens possessed a permanent residence permit, and 132,099 had a temporary residence permit.[4] About 1 to 2 million Ukrainian citizens are working in Poland.[5][6] There are also 40,000 Ukrainian students in Poland.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Poland

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#383

Post by simonh »

rklaehn wrote: post #370
simonh wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one guy in a constitutional court of 16 members, and he wasn't a political appointment but was elected by the German parliament (something like a parliament, I'm no expert on the german system). Assange was put in prison for being a bail jumper wanted on rape allegations. He's now in a perfectly ordinary British prison, going through the usual extradition process under politically independent judicial authorit…

In Germany we have the biggest restrictions of fundamental rights since the existence of the federal republic of Germany. We are all on indefinite house arrest. Millions of people are not allowed to work. And the constitutional court does not even want to hear cases objecting to this. They will make a decision in 1 or 2 years when it has become irrelevant. So it seems we don't have any fundamental rights at all. So s…

Ok, I'll explain the difference. The lockdown in Germany overwhelmingly has the support of the population. If this was not the case, you would expect to see the politicians and parties that instigated the lockdowns severely punished for it in upcoming elections, but that won't happen. It's not a significant issue in the elections. Once the pandemic passes, the restrictions will be lifted. No permanent changes to the fundamental constitutions of Germany have been enacted using emergency laws justified under the pandemic, and if there were they'd still be subject to judicial review and accountability to the electorate. None of that has changed.

I will freely admit Orban does have a lot of support in Hungary, but he has used that to erase the country's judicial constitutional history, not just influence one judicial appointment nut utterly stack the entire judicial system, institute permanent constitutional changes under emergency powers, ruthlessly suppress independent journalism and undermine the entire electoral process in Hungary. He's not even coy about it, he just flat out says that's what he's doing.

There is no level of equivalence, which I'm sure you are completely aware of and fully understand, but this weaselly whataboutism is very tiring. If you actually support what he's doing, just be honest about it and say so, and tell us why.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#384

Post by jiofih »

newdude116 wrote: post #371
jiofih wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s impossible to have a sane discussion if you keep moving the goalposts. You initially ROFLed at the statement that “Germany could become power independent” and said it shows “ignorance and lack of basic math skills”. The data clearly shows that not to be the case. The country is en route to becoming 100% self-sufficient using renewables in the next few decades. Except in that absurd growth scenario you decided to…

“Germany could become power independent” and I doubt that. First in general, second on statistics (e.g. produce aluminum and other energy expensive products outside of Germany). But I gave you, for the sake of the argument, that it is possible. You still would have to compensate for ongoing energy demand growth. Be it inside Germany or outside. So your "final target" is an exponential moving target. " It just has no…

What statistics? What happens in 10-30 years? You haven’t provided a single data point in the context of this conversation. The graph showing the growth over centuries is logarithmic, so that blue line going a little south is actually a massive deviation from an exponential curve and completely disproves the point.

That article talks about 100-300 years as the first physical limits if you kept this absurd growth rate. This is not going to happen unless we reach the singularity, and then yeah you can talk about Dyson spheres and all. Science fiction, not current concerns.

What’s likely in ten years: Germany uses 70% renewables. The country’s energy consumption is down to 1990 levels. This is what the numbers show.

Worldwide, in the past twenty years, energy use has grown by ~70%, a far cry from the 10x increase per century the article supports. And it’s tightly related to more countries becoming developed - for the developed world the consumption has remained the same, as exemplified by Germany.

You’re really drowning in this blog’s kool-aid, do yourself a favor and find some alternative reading that is a bit less doomsday prophecy like.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#385

Post by Dylan16807 »

toyg wrote: post #234
Dylan16807 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you saying a kid is the property of his family...? As far as kidnapping or any other kind of forced movement goes, yes basically.

I think you'll find quite a few legal systems currently disagree with that perspective. I'll give you that it's often the traditional perspective, but the children's wellbeing is increasingly the leading priority of related legislation in developed countries, including on issues like forced movement.

That only matters if there is a conflict, and forced movement rarely causes harm.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#386

Post by staticautomatic »

rsj_hn wrote: post #348
staticautomatic wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI US common law permits asylum claims by economic refugees.

Uh, anyone can make an asylum claim. An asylum claim is basically a plea to not be deported. It is usually a last ditch tactic when you are caught on US soil illegally, and you are not disputing that you are here illegally but are making a plea that you should not be returned anyway. It was a law introduced to aid Cuban boat refugees who were unable to apply for refugee visas and so always came here illegally. The qu…

You are quite wrong. See Baballah v. Ashcroft

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#387

Post by Dylan16807 »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #165
Dylan16807 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you also think it's a problem to fine companies when they do bad things?

So we should ban all flights from certain countries in Africa and the Middle East because they have authoritarian governments? And we should do so until the people there violently overthrow their government? Opinions like this only seem to come from Westerners who will never have to face the consequences of such actions. Geopolitics is complicated and as my original comment said, regular people are usually the ones g…

I didn't say this particular action was justified, I just think the "collective punishment" reason not to do it is a terrible idea that would make it impossible to take action against any organization ever. It's really a stretch to call something like this collective punishment.

If a government does anything there are regular people that are going to get hurt, but that's not a reason to stop governing.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#388

Post by mopsi »

5tefan wrote: post #266
mopsi wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Resorting to bans and sanctions is weak. No, endless talk with no action is weak and pathetic. Mafia states will shit on you if you show unwillingness to stand for yourself. Biden lifted sanctions on Nord Stream and three days later you have this stunt. Let that be a lesson. Every incoming president has had such trial by fire.

They call for blood. You call for blood. This won't lead to less blood. As I stated in my comment and as you casually confirmed. I don't want blood at all.

> They call for blood. You call for blood. This won't lead to less blood.

Yes it will, because Belarus nor Russia are in a position for any serious confrontation. As soon as you call their bluff, they will retreat, as they have done many times before. Their power comes from YOUR FEAR and unwillingness to react appropriately to their provocations.

Both Rusia and Belarus are mafia states that serve as piggy banks to oligarchs, who belong to the global elite. When their status, access and financial wellbeing takes a hit from sanctions, oligarchs will tell their public-facing puppets to tone down and seek better relations.

Oligarhs are not hermits like Kim from the Best Korea or leaders of Middle Eastern theocracies. Their families live in the west, because Russia is a dangerous shithole; they own luxury apartments in NYC and houses in the best parts of London. They spend their holidays in Los Angeles, Southern France and elsewhere. Their kids and wives want to live like the rich people they see on Instagram and in Hollywood movies. They are not willing to give this westernized life up, and that's the string to pull them by: identify key power brokers and their inner circles and target them mercilessly.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#389

Post by rklaehn »

simonh wrote: post #383
rklaehn wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany we have the biggest restrictions of fundamental rights since the existence of the federal republic of Germany. We are all on indefinite house arrest. Millions of people are not allowed to work. And the constitutional court does not even want to hear cases objecting to this. They will make a decision in 1 or 2 years when it has become irrelevant. So it seems we don't have any fundamental rights at all. So s…

Ok, I'll explain the difference. The lockdown in Germany overwhelmingly has the support of the population. If this was not the case, you would expect to see the politicians and parties that instigated the lockdowns severely punished for it in upcoming elections, but that won't happen. It's not a significant issue in the elections. Once the pandemic passes, the restrictions will be lifted. No permanent changes to the…

> The lockdown in Germany overwhelmingly has the support of the population.

Fundamental rights are not supposed to be subject to majority approval. I might be in the minority, but I would still like to leave my house after 22:00 without risking arrest.

But this discussion is pointless.

If you seriously believe that e.g. what is being done to Julian Assange has anything to do with an independent judicial system, there is nothing to discuss.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#390

Post by ridethebike »

briandear wrote: post #355
ridethebike wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a war act? What does it mean in terms of practical steps?

Bomb one of their airbases. Russia can annex Crimea with no real response, so why should the EU show restraint? (I am not suggesting a bombing campaign, just a targeted strike on the airbase from which the intercepting fighter jet departed.) What’s Russia going to do? They want that Nord Stream pipeline. They aren’t going to militarily respond over some two bit dictator, even one friendly to Russia. The Nord Stream e…

The closest this scenario can materialize in real life is being printed in one of Tom Clancy's books.

Nobody is going to bomb stuff over this.

And as much as I like labeling EU toothless [1] - banning Belarusian airlines is proportional and "hawkish" response.

[1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=27263934&goto=item%3Fi...

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