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Google is officially releasing Fuchsia OS, starting with a first-gen Nest Hub

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Re: Google is officially releasing Fuchsia OS, starting with a first-gen Nest Hub

#181

Post by raxxorrax »

pjmlp wrote: post #147
raxxorrax wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the discussion cannot be really detached, since Google has strong ambitions that will undeniably influence features and capabilities of their OS. But as for the microkernel approach, I think the advantages are on the table, but they are theoretical. Until now, no OS with a micro architecture was successful at getting significant market share. What would your requirements at an OS like this be? For me, it woul…

Look outside of the desktop into embedded platforms. QNX, Switch OS, INTEGRITY OS, L4. To a certain extent, all Android OS services after Project Treble.

I work in the embedded area and it is true that these approaches are more successful here. But I think that is due to real pressure for memomy and speed or real time applications. That isn't really the case for general purpose devices like PCs. Those have an unlimited amount of memory and CPU power.

I might try it for embedded devices some day.

Re: Google is officially releasing Fuchsia OS, starting with a first-gen Nest Hub

#182

Post by kerneis »

dmantis wrote: post #79
kerneis wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuchsia, like Chrome, has been open-source for years, and all commits and reviews as well as the bug tracker are public. It is a very different model from how Android releases work. (Disclaimer: I work on Fuchsia at Google.)

Chrome is not open-sourced, Chronium is. I cannot rebuild Chrome with full protection against tracking, for example, but with all other parts unchanged. Android "open sourced" as well, but literally nobody runs AOSP, stock OSS apps are staled for years, Google makes a lot to make system barely usable without proprietary parts from Google Services.

That's a fair point, and the distinction between Chrome and Chromium is indeed relevant. Sorry for the confusion, see my sibling comment about how it applies to Fuchsia (ie. what is open source and what may not be).

What I really meant to say, though, is that Fuchsia is taking an approach to inclusiveness and open source which is much more similar to the one of Chromium than Android. You may find out more on https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/concepts/principles/inclusiv...

Re: Google is officially releasing Fuchsia OS, starting with a first-gen Nest Hub

#183

Post by eingaeKaiy8ujie »

pjmlp wrote: post #160
eingaeKaiy8ujie wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that it's totally possible to have an Android phone without any proprietary Google software components, thanks to Android being open source. Same with Fuchsia - its license should allow to make a fully FOSS privacy-respecting variant, and maybe it would be something I could recommend to my friends or family to replace Windows on their desktop for example (if Fuchsia becomes popular enough). At least such…

Good luck with Android 12, ART is now also part of GSI images and delivery over Play Store.

I'm not familiar enough with Android internals, but as I understood from a quick research this means that it will be possible now to upgrade the Android Runtime through the Play Store (which was handled by phone manufacturers?). Is it a problem for distributions without the Play Store like GrapheneOS or LineageOS? Why?

Re: Google is officially releasing Fuchsia OS, starting with a first-gen Nest Hub

#184

Post by kerneis »

ryukafalz wrote: post #180
kerneis wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several parts to your question, let me try and answer each of them as I understand them. Fuchsia is built with a minimal core (sometimes called a microkernel) and many user-space services interacting with each other over an IPC protocol (called FIDL). The open-source part of Fuchsia, available on fuchsia.dev, is a standalone system which you can build and run on supported architectures. It contains all the…

Thanks, this is useful information. > For a retail devices, such as the Nest Hub, vendors can build a custom system with additional or different services from what is found in the open-source release. Thanks to stability of the FIDL interfaces, those closed-source services do not prevent the core system from being updated. This is helpful so long as the interface does not change; do you anticipate ever having to chan…

> do you anticipate ever having to change it or do you think it's pretty final at this point?

We're not there yet, but defining a stable driver runtime is on our roadmap for 2021: https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/contribute/roadmap/2021/stab...

For non-driver interfaces, similar stability commitments may be shared over time, as the platform matures and we get more users.

> Are there any sort of security guarantees to protect against malicious services?

Fuchsia is based on capabilities, ie. handles to access resources, and those include memory regions. So a driver will only be able to access the parts of memory that you delegate to it. I don't know enough about drivers to provide a detailed security analysis, but I think it provides far more isolation than what you have in a monolithic kernel such as Linux.

Re: Google is officially releasing Fuchsia OS, starting with a first-gen Nest Hub

#185

Post by kerneis »

ori_b wrote: post #84
kerneis wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuchsia, like Chrome, has been open-source for years, and all commits and reviews as well as the bug tracker are public. It is a very different model from how Android releases work. (Disclaimer: I work on Fuchsia at Google.)

How many of your colleagues are outside Google?

I'm not sure I understand the question, but you may be interested in the following article about Samsung contributing to Fuchsia: https://9to5google.com/2021/05/12/samsung-contributing-f2fs-...

Re: Google is officially releasing Fuchsia OS, starting with a first-gen Nest Hub

#187

Post by TrinaryWorksToo »

nobleach wrote: post #107
DebtDeflation wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm so done with this smart home stuff. "Alexa, turn on Living Room." "I'm sorry, I'm having trouble understanding now." I mean, yeah, I can toggle the light switch to get it to turn on, but then it gets screwed up and I need to go into the app to reset it when the internet comes back on. I don't even want to think about a smart thermostat. My dumb thermostat from 10 years ago let's me set timers which is all I reall…

While I've never had issues with turning on and off lights via Alexa -> Smart Plugs, I have had my Echo Dot unable to play my wakeup alarm due to internet blips. Really? That particular function couldn't store some data in some sort of local storage? Like, I don't want the thing to be able to tell me Rick Springfield's biggest hits in order of Billboard chart performance while offline... I simply want my alarm sound…

You need an offline smart assistant: https://medevel.com/10-open-source-voice-assistants/

Re: Google is officially releasing Fuchsia OS, starting with a first-gen Nest Hub

#188

Post by swiley »

ryukafalz wrote: post #91
kerneis wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuchsia, like Chrome, has been open-source for years, and all commits and reviews as well as the bug tracker are public. It is a very different model from how Android releases work. (Disclaimer: I work on Fuchsia at Google.)

So, if I buy a device that runs Fuchsia (say, this Nest Hub), is enough of Fuchsia FOSS that I can run my own copy of it with e.g. a different UI and without Google services? This is true of Android devices by necessity as the kernel is GPL (bootloader locking aside); is it true of Fuchsia devices? As for bootloader locking, Google releases some Android devices with unlockable bootloaders. Can we expect the same of F…

It's not really true for Android either because the graphics drivers are mostly userspace and end up coupled with a lot of the vendor provided stuff.

Fuchsia has no GPL so it's unlikely any of the driver source will be available to you.

Re: Google is officially releasing Fuchsia OS, starting with a first-gen Nest Hub

#189

Post by bondolo »

mwcampbell wrote: post #118
bionade24 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a smart speaker with a display doesn't make sense for a bling person imao.

It might make sense for a blind person with sighted family and friends.

Given that this describes my family and we have a first gen Nest Hub I expect to be able to soon report whether Fushcia is as accessible as the prior Linux stack.

Re: Google is officially releasing Fuchsia OS, starting with a first-gen Nest Hub

#190

Post by canadianfella »

Grazester wrote: post #63

I came here for a technical discussion about Fuchsia and it's microkernel approach instead this is mostly fill with complains about Google as a company. Is there a social justice forum I can visit where I may be able to have a technical discussion about Fuchsia?

Ironic that you decided not to comment on anything technical.
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