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I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

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Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#291

Post by aranchelk »

quanticle wrote: post #207
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devil’s advocate: a lot of crime in San Francisco isn’t reported. For example, the case mentioned in the article.

The crime in the article was reported. From the article: The police officer said he was glad to have the license plate number but that robbery is so low-profile in the courts right now that even if they did catch him, without video proof, the thieves would be let go within a day or so. No, the officer didn't take action based upon what they saw, but it's reasonable to conclude that a police report was filled out for…

It would be entirely reasonable for the cops to file a report, but I would not make the assumption that they did.

Reasons cops file reports include:

An intention to investigate the crime

The victim requests a report for an insurance claim

In this case they know it’s a hard crime to investigate. Based on the articles I’ve read, it seems thieves in SF often use stolen cars, so even the plates may not be that helpful. Moreover we have serious crimes like attempted murder and illegal gun possession in SF going un-prosecuted, so the cops cannot assume an arrest could lead to anything at all.

Additionally filing a report with little hope for an arrest makes the precincts numbers look bad. Those numbers will get reported in neighborhood association meetings, and those association people (I’m one of them) can be a real pain in the ass to the politicians (i.e. the boss’s boss’s boss).

It’s just not a good incentive structure and if we were going to do a clean redesign IMO the politicians and cops should have as little control over the official statistics as possible.

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#292

Post by Apocryphon »

vehementi wrote: post #287
dcow wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SF is objectively poorly managed. It's not just anecdotal. Follow the money and see where it leads... Personally I see the posts as a strong dose of red-pill happening here on NH as people wake up from their starry-eyed honeymoon with the city by the bay. From what I've seen, it's not just people saying "I visited and it sucked". It's people also saying "I lived there for 10+ years and it really has gone downhill". P…

> they're also not unsolved problems in other areas There aren't a lot of areas like SF - nice weather cities with support in place. In such areas, this is not a solved problem (Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, SF, ...). Basically everything in this entire thread can be said for Seattle or Vancouver just with reduced scale.

This is also increasing in LA as well, stories of how bad Venice Beach is now. Though not sure how SD is faring.

The entire west coast can probably be written off in terms of having the same problems of homelessness and inequality, just to differing degrees. It's far from an SF-only issue.

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#293

Post by dragonwriter »

ALittleLight wrote: post #288
dragonwriter wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Citizens in California are allowed to make a citizen's arrest including use of reasonable force. For a misdemeanor (as the shoplifting described in this case appears to be), only if the arrested party actually committed the offense and it occurred in the arresting party’s presence (for a felony , the terms are somewhat looser.) As the description clearly indicates that the offense did not occur in the poster’s pres…

What do the courts mean by "in the presence?" Although they have not had occasion to elaborate much, they have said that the crime must have been "apparent to the senses," but that this requirement should be interpreted "liberally." Thus, it will be satisfied if the citizen was aware of circumstances from which he could reasonably infer that a crime was occurring in his presence - https://le.alcoda.org/publications/f…

> What do the courts mean by "in the presence?"

Even the most liberal definition doesn’t include the arrestor being only aware of the crime after the arrest (even the looser felony citizen arrest rules require both knowledge of the offense and reasonable belief that the arrestee committed it, as well as, as in the misdemeanor case, actual guilt.)

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#294

Post by Apocryphon »

raverbashing wrote: post #289
bzbarsky wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I was in France (Lyon, a few years ago), there was quite a number of homeless people camping out in the parks. Is France also a third-world country? I agree that the homeless situation is bad. I don't think blanket claims that other "first world" countries handle it much better are necessarily true, unfortunately.

One (or a couple of) cities don't represent the whole country, naturally. These were probably either recent migrants ("refugees" for lack of a better term) or Roma camps (which are not today's problem). They could as well just be homeless, sure (depends on the park, location, etc). Mostly, they are the result of progressive policies gone unchecked as well. But are these in the same quantity/concentration and causing…

How bad are the banlieues?

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#295

Post by dude187 »

imgabe wrote: post #182
narrator wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone who lives in SF chime in and tell us why you voted for Mr. Boudin? Knowing what I know about bay area politics, I bet half the people who voted for him will say that crime in San Francisco is not the district attorney's fault and blame Regan for closing down the mental hospitals in the 70s. I live just outside San Francisco city limits and everything is peaceful, because the criminals know that the laws a…

I think it's partially a positive feedback loop. I'm not sure how to solve the problem. But it probably goes: SF spends a lot of money on services for the homeless, so lots of homeless people keep going there to get those services. Other places don't spend any money on services for the homeless, so the homeless people leave. If every place spent a little bit on services for the homeless, there would be just a few hom…

> But it probably goes: SF spends a lot of money on services for the homeless, so lots of homeless people keep going there to get those services. Other places don't spend any money on services for the homeless, so the homeless people leave.

That's really not a realistic view of the situation though. Pretty much everywhere in the US, _all_ major cities at the very least, have "services for the homeless".

I think the problem lies a lot in the "progressive" idea that people claiming "homeless" somehow classifies for a privileged status. They setup a "homeless class" of people that don't have to work, and get paid to do so. The worse they act, the bigger the "problem" is according to their "caretakers" and the only outcome they can expect is to get an even _bigger_ payout.

In most major cities, shelters require a certain code of conduct. Those that don't abide by it get ousted, suffer the cold of winter, and buck up and man up and deal with it. In SF, they just camp out in the nicest of areas, people cry "hey there's some victims!" and they get an even bigger reward for their degeneracy. People that think they're helping stop some sort of cycle are literally just working at creating the feedback loop.

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#296

Post by psychomugs »

dragonwriter wrote: post #275
ALittleLight wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citizens in California are allowed to make a citizen's arrest including use of reasonable force. 1 - https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/penal-code/837/#3.1

> Citizens in California are allowed to make a citizen's arrest including use of reasonable force. For a misdemeanor (as the shoplifting described in this case appears to be), only if the arrested party actually committed the offense and it occurred in the arresting party’s presence (for a felony , the terms are somewhat looser.) As the description clearly indicates that the offense did not occur in the poster’s pres…

I judged the given probability P(crime | guy being chased in the streets & SF) as much higher than chance, which is what led me to yield to instinct.

I realize that I was over my head considering the guy was much bigger than me and I had no way of knowing if he was armed or not, but I sleep better at night knowing I did what I could to act as a decent human being.

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#297

Post by danmaz74 »

dude187 wrote: post #162
premium-komodo wrote: post #3

Yes, that seems to be how it is in SF. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arss9V3A1VA Is it possible that, despite good intentions, the policies being implemented there actually have very harmful effects?

I feel like a lot if it stems from people talking about petty crime like theft as some sort of "cycle". They get tricked into thinking that means you can break it by ignoring it. "Break the cycle, they will stop committing the crime!" With the only voter controlled lever being "don't prosecute crime". It's like some sort of ridiculous over swing from "tough on crime" that relies on an infantilization of those they wi…

It actually becomes a self reinforcing cycle if staying in prison makes you an even worse criminal than before. A sensible solution isn't not to incarcerate criminals, but to make prisons a place where people can improve - and not just be punished with terrible conditions that make you more violent.

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#298

Post by dcow »

wearywanderer wrote: post #188
asdff wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's baffling how short we are on the services we need in the richest state in the richest nation. LA county alone is anticipated to have over 100,000 homeless in the next few years. That's the population of Burbank. They aren't exactly sure how much over as they couldn't do the annual count this year, but COVID related job loss and expiring benefits should be of no help.

Californian politicians are all embezzling criminals. How else can the discrepancy between the money supposedly going to these programs and these programs actually receiving next to nothing be explained?

It's not criminal if you call it a pension fund? Idk it baffles me too. I'd be entirely okay with higher taxes if they accomplished a single thing. But they don't. Also:

Step 1. Get elected.

Step 2. Convince a friend that they should really establish an organization to fight homelessness.

Step 3. Impose a gross receipts tax to fund fighting homelessness, structured as financial support for "non-profits" with an aligned charter.

Step 4. Leave office and serve on the board of the organization your "friend" established.

End result: you've essentially elected yourself a salary paid for out of the communal treasury. The "let's just throw money at the problem" type of mindset is especially susceptible to supporting these taxes. They see the problem and obviously want to support solving it but don't follow up on the flow of money.

IMO politicians should be required to be actively performing civic duties to be getting paid by tax money. And all taxes should default to being (or be required to be) repealed after a fixed term. The people must elect to re-impose the tax based on their perception of whether it was effective or not.

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#299

Post by Apocryphon »

babesh wrote: post #290
Apocryphon wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the pandemic and economic depression have certainly exacerbated things. I also doubt that tourism in most places in California will really resemble pre-quarantine times until at least June 15th.

Yes. The economic downturn definitely was another major cause. There was increased crime even in the suburbs. However, that crime was mostly car break-ins, catalytic converter thefts, garage break-ins, package thefts. Violent crime doesn’t seem to have increased much unlike in SF and apparently other big cities.

Fair, but a lot of the anecdote details you mentioned aren't really attributable to the increase in violent crime. As mentioned elsewhere, Walgreens closing might be caused by economic downturn impacting a business strategy of market saturation (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27273139 and second child post).

The city also feels dead because tourism everywhere in the U.S. is currently dead. SF Chinatown is most definitely not comparable to the state of Oakland Chinatown:

https://abc7news.com/man-shot-killed-in-broad-daylight-oakla...

Oakland's homicide rate is skyrocketing, but so are its housing prices. Goes to show that in the Bay Area as a whole, crime and desirability of living often fail to correlate. SF's problem might simply be people don't want to live in a dense area during a societal shutdown.

Re: I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled

#300

Post by dude187 »

edrxty wrote: post #249
throwaway1959 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's hard to argue that the SF government is not comprised of people on the forefront of the progressive agenda. Am I wrong about this? Take a look at Chesa Boudin, for example [1]. All their policies are progressive (their voters would certainly hope so). Are you saying that San Francisco's progressive policies are not the right progressive policies? Which place has the right policies then? Chicago? Their cr…

To be honest, I think American progressivism as a whole is a bit compromised as it generally tries to accomplish its goals while first keeping the corporations pleased and second never truly taxing the rich. Further they need to consider the externalities they create. If a city or state is going to implement supportive policies, people from surrounding areas (areas not contributing to the tax base) may choose or be p…

> it generally tries to accomplish its goals while first keeping the corporations pleased

What goals are compromised to "keep the corporations pleased"? How would these goals be defined if the corporations were not be taken into account?

> and second never truly taxing the rich

You hold "taxing the rich" as some sort of high level independent goal to be done in and of itself. Can you quantify what the lack of funds are that available to SF from not "taxing the rich"? How much is the budget shortfall, and what would this extra budget go to if San Francisco were to "tax the rich"?

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