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Microsoft has turned the Surface Duo into a handheld Xbox

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Re: Microsoft has turned the Surface Duo into a handheld Xbox

#111

Post by lotsofpulp »

WorldMaker wrote: post #88
lotsofpulp wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The problem was 100% insufficient ecosystem support. The root cause of which is insufficient Microsoft support. If they had stuck with it and kept investing for 10 years and kept up their investments in physical stores where people could go to buy non malware laden products and get tech help, I think they could have been a 3rd option in today's market.

Microsoft couldn't get over the hurdle that US phone carriers refused to sell a 3rd option at all , no matter how much money or time they threw at that problem. They could invest in physical retail Microsoft Stores all they want, but they were locked out of the stores US consumers actually buy that hardware form factor from, and in many cases they couldn't even get SIM cards for most of the US networks even if they d…

Interesting. I wonder how could Microsoft not have enough political sway to force FCC to do something about that? Maybe not force them to sell their phones, but not giving them SIM cards seems egregious. And at all 4 mobile networks?

How are Pinephone and these small timers getting SIM cards then?

Re: Microsoft has turned the Surface Duo into a handheld Xbox

#112

Post by throwaway3699 »

zeusk wrote: post #86
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much this. If it ran Windows 10, I'd not only own it, I'd be excited to own it. There's just nothing exciting about anything iOS or Android is doing. They're just phones. What's frustrating is that Microsoft is in this incredibly deep rut with their OS team and haven't been able to dig themselves out. Each successive alternative flavor of 10 has failed to launch for years, including this month's death of 10X. As m…

death of 10X, leadership would like us to believe was more so because of COVID and their concern around less consumer confidence during a pandemic. Obviously, that didn't really happen since prices are through the roof for cars, houses, gpu, gaming consoles etc.

> Obviously, that didn't really happen since prices are through the roof for cars, houses, gpu, gaming consoles etc.

Which can be indicative of supply crunch, rather than high demand.

Re: Microsoft has turned the Surface Duo into a handheld Xbox

#113

Post by neogodless »

swiley wrote: post #87
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, the issue is that their own previous attempt, Windows Mobile, was a high quality, competent OS platform. And it's largest issue was that you couldn't get Google apps on it because Google's a monopolist. Pushing a different OS that doesn't have Google app support doesn't really move the needle.

Considering Microsoft's OS has it's own (much larger) app ecosystem this seems like a pretty strange complaint.

If I understand correctly, they are referring to Windows Phone 7/8/10 which had a store and some apps, but things like Gmail and YouTube were actively blocked but Google to make life difficult for Microsoft and the consumers choosing Windows Phone. Simular things happened with Snapchat and Instagram. No first party support, and third party apps for blocked from their APIs.

Windows Mobile was kind of before the time of Google / Android apps. Neither WM or WP could run Win32 apps though, so ultimately the software ecosystem was very limited.

Re: Microsoft has turned the Surface Duo into a handheld Xbox

#114

Post by passivate »

bartread wrote: post #76

No, no, no, no, no, no, NO! Touch controls for most games suck (I've tried). Replicating somebody's Xbox controller on the second screen sucks . It's unendingly annoying when you die over and over in a game because your thumb or finger wasn't in quite the right place to fire or move in a particular direction. Not to mention, the Duo is ####ing expensive: top-end iPhone kind of money for the unlocked variant. If you r…

I wonder if in the future you could have micro-fluid channels underneath the screen where you can pump fluid to create raised bumps for the buttons. I remember seeing a techdemo years ago, but haven't seen it materialize in a product. This seems to be a good fit.

Re: Microsoft has turned the Surface Duo into a handheld Xbox

#115

Post by bartread »

passivate wrote: post #114
bartread wrote: post #76

No, no, no, no, no, no, NO! Touch controls for most games suck (I've tried). Replicating somebody's Xbox controller on the second screen sucks . It's unendingly annoying when you die over and over in a game because your thumb or finger wasn't in quite the right place to fire or move in a particular direction. Not to mention, the Duo is ####ing expensive: top-end iPhone kind of money for the unlocked variant. If you r…

I wonder if in the future you could have micro-fluid channels underneath the screen where you can pump fluid to create raised bumps for the buttons. I remember seeing a techdemo years ago, but haven't seen it materialize in a product. This seems to be a good fit.

This is the closest story I found: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-35232827. But I do remember, and I'm sure it was also on the BBC, a piece several years ago where they demonstrated "physical buttons" the the form of reconfigurable raised bumps on a touch screen that was, I think, either on a phone or a small tablet. I just can't find it now unfortunately.

If a company could get that to work well, and it was also robust in the face of day to day wear and tear, being dropped, etc. - and of course it wasn't incredibly expensive - I think they'd probably be on to a bit of a winner.

Re: Microsoft has turned the Surface Duo into a handheld Xbox

#116

Post by barbs »

minimaul wrote: post #91
bartread wrote: post #76

No, no, no, no, no, no, NO! Touch controls for most games suck (I've tried). Replicating somebody's Xbox controller on the second screen sucks . It's unendingly annoying when you die over and over in a game because your thumb or finger wasn't in quite the right place to fire or move in a particular direction. Not to mention, the Duo is ####ing expensive: top-end iPhone kind of money for the unlocked variant. If you r…

100% yes. Touch controls suck for gaming because your fingers drift. There's no physical feedback that your fingers are on top of the button and ready to press. It sucks, and I really really hope that this doesn't catch on.

I doubt it will, thankfully. Touch controls have been around for a long time on smartphones so lots of people have already had a chance to see how crappy they are.

Re: Microsoft has turned the Surface Duo into a handheld Xbox

#117

Post by whatshisface »

passivate wrote: post #114
bartread wrote: post #76

No, no, no, no, no, no, NO! Touch controls for most games suck (I've tried). Replicating somebody's Xbox controller on the second screen sucks . It's unendingly annoying when you die over and over in a game because your thumb or finger wasn't in quite the right place to fire or move in a particular direction. Not to mention, the Duo is ####ing expensive: top-end iPhone kind of money for the unlocked variant. If you r…

I wonder if in the future you could have micro-fluid channels underneath the screen where you can pump fluid to create raised bumps for the buttons. I remember seeing a techdemo years ago, but haven't seen it materialize in a product. This seems to be a good fit.

https://la.disneyresearch.com/publication/tactile-rendering-...

Disney has been working on this, although their method is different from your proposal.

Re: Microsoft has turned the Surface Duo into a handheld Xbox

#118

Post by TMWNN »

fullstop wrote: post #16
neogodless wrote: post #9

What's pretty clear is that the small form-factor multi-screen device needs a compelling story to establish value and utility. The Surface Duo looks like a very cool device that I would probably never use over a phone with one good screen, more power and a great camera. Similar to tablets, I personally just reach for the phone or the laptop or my TV, and never a tablet. But a Duo released with some more power and som…

I've considered getting a larger Android tablet for the purpose of playing games on GamePass /xCloud with a paired xbox controller. It works quite well on my phone, but the screen is kind of small or my eyes are bad. The piece missing for me, currently, is the lack of vibration support. I did not appreciate how many tactile cues today's games have until it was missing. For example, in Sea of Thieves, there is a "clun…

>I've considered getting a larger Android tablet for the purpose of playing games on GamePass /xCloud with a paired xbox controller.

As far as I know, [there is still no tablet-sized controller with proper analog triggers](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF-wWUSq3Cc#t=12m10s).

>The piece missing for me, currently, is the lack of vibration support.

My understanding is that this is an Android issue. Nvidia added vibration support for Shield TV, its Google TV box, but vibration only works on a) GeForce NOW with b) the 2017 Nvidia game controller. Not the 2015 controller, not Xbox One controller, not xCloud, etc.

Re: Microsoft has turned the Surface Duo into a handheld Xbox

#119

Post by modshatereality »

macspoofing wrote: post #97
amelius wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could put a thin plastic/silicon stencil over the screen, with holes in the places where the buttons are located, which makes it possible to feel where the buttons are.

Or you can pair a controller.

The real enemy is latency. Physical switches that trigger an IRQ directly to be handled by the program within microseconds would be ideal for human gaming (edit: or directly reading hardware registers). Everything else is just another weak option, pretending to be a gaming system. Also while I'm on the topic, F microsoft for still preventing me from developing software for their system independently.

Re: Microsoft has turned the Surface Duo into a handheld Xbox

#120

Post by bztzt »

nonbirithm wrote: post #70
mumblemumble wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I revisit the device, I'm just disappointed all over again that it doesn't run Windows 10. This seems like the device that might have justified Windows 8's ill-fated attempt to unify the mobile and desktop operating systems. I see it, and what I want it to be is a dual-function device that works like a tablet when I'm on the train or whatever, but switches into a more PC-style interface when I plug in a mo…

The picture in the article reminds me of the GPD Win 2, which has physical buttons and runs Windows 10. The Win 2 doesn't really give the impression of a laptop or a mobile phone, more like a portable game console that runs PC software. Maybe there are some form factors in between laptops and phones/tablets that are worth exploring further. It would be nice if the GPD hardware had better dockability. All the availabl…

switching between a touchscreen and mouse is no more awkward than switching between a keyboard and mouse, imo
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