How Intuitive Are Macs Really? • Hacker News Board

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#461

Post by timbit42 » Mon, May 24, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

philliphaydon wrote: post #232

Popegaf wrote: post #189

They aren't. The first time using it about 10 years ago was confusing: Single button mouse --> no instructions, can't find out how to right click Double click on window --> fullscreen; uh... move mouse around edges to find how to get back to other windows Drag window to side of the screen to split window --> nothing; search the application menu --> nothing; Cmd+Right? --> nothing; oook, I have to actually resize ever…

> Single button mouse --> no instructions, can't find out how to right click I can’t stand OSX, but I’m pretty proficient. I think the right click is a symptom of you being so used to Windows or linux. The average user probably never needs to right click. I bought my mum a MacBook Air and she’s never needed to right click in the 4-5 years of owning it. I think it’s hidden for good reason. She also never asks if she s…

Having a second button is better than having to double-click.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#462

Post by vinw » Mon, May 24, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

toomanybeersies wrote: post #417

I've been using MacBooks for 8 hours a decade, for over half a decade now, and I still can't figure finder out. Why does the delete key not delete files? How do I create a new file? I can't even figure out how to navigate down a directory. I suppose it's not an issue with Finder specifically, but the fact that macOS defaults to saving your screenshots to Desktop is just terrible. At one point I had hundreds of screen…

> 8 hours a decade, for over half a decade now

For a grand total of 4 hours?

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#463

Post by berelig » Mon, May 24, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

toomanybeersies wrote: post #417

I've been using MacBooks for 8 hours a decade, for over half a decade now, and I still can't figure finder out. Why does the delete key not delete files? How do I create a new file? I can't even figure out how to navigate down a directory. I suppose it's not an issue with Finder specifically, but the fact that macOS defaults to saving your screenshots to Desktop is just terrible. At one point I had hundreds of screen…

> I've been using MacBooks for 8 hours a decade, for over half a decade now

To be fair, 4 hours is not a lot of time to learn a new OS :)

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#464

Post by gumby » Mon, May 24, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

A big difference is direct manipulation in the Mac interface. Windows makes greater use of select and then select verb (e.g. cut/copy, move, paste to move a file is canonical). The mac also supportes this in many cases (like windows has some direct manipulation too of course), so if you come from windows you’ll use what’s familiar to you and not see the difference.

But that approach is not primary in the Mac interface. It’s more common to drag or manipulate elements directly. So window titles and such are actually manipulatable objects, inputs and destinations for actions.

I think this misunderstanding a big reason for “I don’t get it” posts.

Don’t get me wrong: there are plenty of problems with the Mac. I use it because I feel it sucks less. I just think that a lot of articles like this don’t manage to get to the real point, for understandable reasons.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#465

Post by pseudalopex » Mon, May 24, 2021, 6:21 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #421

rsynnott wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With the wrong keyboard shortcut, the correct one universally being Cmd-X. I think no matter what you do here, you have a problem. When you press ctrl-x on a file in Windows explorer; you're not really cutting it; nothing happens til you paste! (Unlike using cut anywhere else). Both Windows and MacOS end up with a bit of a strained metaphor here; I don't think it's at all obvious which way is _correct_.

That's not true at all! The moment you cut a file on windows it is marked as hidden, which makes it disappear with default settings. It's treu that unless you paste it it will remain there in practice, but the UX gets it right. Furthermore, you can cut once and paste to several places, with predictable semantics identical to every other implementation of cut+paste (though performance of the first paste will be differ…

You were wrong about the 1st part too. Cut files don't change attributes and don't disappear.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#466

Post by cpleppert » Mon, May 24, 2021, 6:22 PM UTC

throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205

rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

>> There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work

Cmd-opt-V will move the previously copied folder/file. I find this behavior superior to having to decide whether to cut/copy a file to select it. Instead, you choose the operation when it is time to actually move or copy. You can also copy a file to multiple locations in combination with a move.

Cmd-up moves to the parent folder.

You have lots of sort and aligning options that are accessible in keyboard shortcuts. Column browser doesn’t have a good windows equivalent for example. Alt or double clicking the bottom bar adjusts the width of all panes or auto adjusts the selected one. So I’m never in a situation where some file name is cut off even in very deep hierarchies.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#467

Post by hagg3n » Mon, May 24, 2021, 6:23 PM UTC

samatman wrote: post #333

shawnz wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, so it's not a problem with Finder but actually the window manager. Why would you ever want to have a "menubar-only" app? It would be better if the design didn't create the possibility of that happening at all.

See I firmly disagree with this. If I have some document editor open, and I close all the documents, what should happen? Should it quit? Well if I wanted to quit, I would have done so. Should it display some blank pane? Why? To let me know it's still running? The menu bar does that! I say it should close that last window, and then I can open up another one and keep working. In other words, I want to have a "menubar-o…

Honest question:

Should whether an application is running or not be a concern to you? Why would you ever want to actually quit an application?

Granted, I understand that in reality the app might be misbehaving, hogging resources and whatnot and that the underlying OS isn't perfect and we should absolutely have control over how our hardware is utilized, but from a UX PoV I think the notion of a running process isn't of interest to me unless I am developing software.

If I close a window, I just want to get it out of my way. I only leave things running as a workaround to the possible slow cold start the program may present.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#468

Post by mlindner » Mon, May 24, 2021, 6:24 PM UTC

dmitriid wrote: post #392

bayindirh wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no way to create an empty file This is one of the features I never miss and don't use on any other DE (like KDE). I just open the app, create the file and save. Maybe it's just habit, but I personally doesn't find it as a needed feature. > There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) Just drag it where you want while pressing CMD? I know it's not cut but it prevents a lot of errors I think.…

> It's called "Clean Up By". Available in right click menu and in the top menu probably. And you cannot apply it to all folders across the entire system. Why they still haven't fixed tis, is beyond me.

You can. View menu --> Show View Options. Customize to how you want it, and click the "use as defaults" button.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#469

Post by AshamedCaptain » Mon, May 24, 2021, 6:24 PM UTC

jolux wrote: post #124

baryphonic wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uninstalling on macOS is actually pretty tough, since ancillary files are not cleaned up. I end up installing a set of third party utilities whenever I set up a new Mac that help me with a bunch of the weird stuff that isn't handled by default. (including AppCleaner and ShiftIt for uninstallation and window management, respectively). Windows makes it pretty easy with the one "add or remove programs" section of the co…

>Windows makes it pretty easy with the one "add or remove programs" section of the control panel. Except there's no guarantee that uninstallers will remove all ancillary files on Windows either, especially because Windows developers seem to have a habit of just spraying configuration files and serialized state all across the filesystem haphazardly with little concern for organization.

It's not really a Windows-only thing. Even OSes with proper packaging systems (and even MSI on Windows) will still forget a lot of files e.g. in user's home directories. How do you even decide when do you remove those?

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#470

Post by dang » Mon, May 24, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

danity wrote: post #304

Hooray, another Apple-hating circle jerk post!

Please don't.

Everyone with strong feelings on $X (such as a BigCo or any other topic really) thinks that the community gets way too much anti-$X hate. The people who feel the opposite way think the forum is biased in exactly the opposite direction. These biases are in the eye of the beholder—they are predictable from your own passions. That makes comments like yours here particularly unhelpful, because they'll mostly just provoke the other side into passion wars, which are predictable and tedious and usually turn nasty.

I don't mean to pick on you personally. You're far from the only person suffering from this condition—in fact it seems universal in some form.

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