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Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

bbc.co.uk

141–150 of 208 posts

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's literally what the constitution itself says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." The vast majority of Americans are not Silicon Valley technocrats who reject any kind of deontological ethics.

As others have pointed out - that's not the constitution. From a philosophical perspective, though, I agree that Jefferson and others saw those rights as fundamental human truths. They were saying "people already have these rights, we promise the government won't infringe on them", not "the government grants people these privileges". (Of course, who qualified as "people" continued to be a matter of debate. And some o…

>From a philosophical perspective, though, I agree that Jefferson and others saw those rights as fundamental human truths. They were saying "people already have these rights, we promise the government won't infringe on them"

In general, that's almost certainly true. But there was also genuine disagreement between the Federalists and Anti-Federalists over the power of the central government and the Bill of Rights was essentially an effort to craft a compromise that could be ratified. Madison whittled down a long list of suggested rights and liberties to 12 amendments. Some of which (as in the first amendment, right to a trial, etc.) are fairly fundamental. Others of which, perhaps most of all the third as you say, fairly clearly grew out of Revolutionary War concerns.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#142
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO the concept of "parallel construction" is mostly an USA specific thing because USA legal doctrine is heavy on fourth amendment application and "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine that can make evidence inadmissible depending on how it was obtained. But all those things and rights are specific to USA, not in general, and not even for other common law countries. As far as I understand, such "fruit of the poison…

Parallel construction is also used to protect sources and methods.

> Parallel construction is also used to protect sources and methods.

And, of course, it is the unethical and unlawful methods which have the greatest need of "protection".

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#143

In reality, the police were likely violating his rights and doing some good old fashioned parallel construction. They had his prints from his products, knew who he was already, waited until they watched him post a picture of cheese, then claimed it was only the picture that caused him to be caught. This is a clear change in police methods, enabled by tech, and an abuse of your constitutional rights if this was a U.S.…

IMHO the concept of "parallel construction" is mostly an USA specific thing because USA legal doctrine is heavy on fourth amendment application and "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine that can make evidence inadmissible depending on how it was obtained. But all those things and rights are specific to USA, not in general, and not even for other common law countries. As far as I understand, such "fruit of the poison…

[deleted]

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#144
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know why you think the photo on the BBC is the original photo. It’s probably been re-compressed half a dozen times as it was passed between police to reporter to CMS to CDN.

it's not compression blurry though, it's out of focus

It's not even out of focus, it's motion blur.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#145
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A major dealer in Liverpool is almost certainly someone who has his prints on file for previous crimes. They'll have suspected that account was him for a while but didn't have reasonable grounds, this photo clearly convinced someone it gave them that. But sure, let's take talking points from another country and apply it here too to get angry because question mark

Do you see any visible fingerprints on the photo? I don't.

If you look at the full size image there's at the very least a large portion of palm print fairly visible. That's enough if you have a palm print, I assume.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#146
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope this is all from the compromise of Encrochat. There have been dozens of stories about the pseudonymous users of that service being linked back to real identities since the initial first large wave of arrests Sometimes you don’t need crazy parallel construction theories - just a simple criminal network cracked because the participants believed it to be secure

Right, it seems like he was discussing criminal activity on Encrochat, posted his fingerprints in the picture, and the Police must have had his prints on file from previous incidents. No rights violations required, not that such rights would apply in the UK anyway but that's a different issue.

I'm extremely skeptical that usable fingerprints can be captured from any casual photo that is sent through a chat app

The CCC in Germany did this once with a picture from Ursula von der Leyen, but IIRC they contacted the original photographer who provided an extremely hi-res image

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#147
post #118

Isn't this just like trying to link the Dread Pirate Roberts identity to a real-world person? Not really anything nefarious about that.

Ross/DPR ruined it by acting like some anonymous drug lord doing (fake) assassinations with (pretend) Hells Angels. Violence is the scourge on (certain) societies that needs to be dealt with.

This guy was just selling drugs consensually/non-violently (AFIK) and probably happened to be far up the chain.

The police pat themselves on the back and 20 other distributors they didn't catch are getting a minor pay raise and life goes on.

The only hope is this guy can find real productive work in the 5-7yrs he actually does in prison, and doesn't become a hardened criminal with street rep from prison.

The other risk is potential power vacuums that results in violence that wouldn't otherwise be there but I doubt it in Liverpool (unlike Mexico and for example: CJNG, aka Jalisco New Generation Cartel).

Note: I feel the need to point out I'm not some hippie activist against the police. It's just obvious and rational that DEA is burning through money while the real work of addiction and access to drugs is much harder problem than arresting replaceable dealers and needs a new whole new approach. It's been obvious for decades and some governments are finally realizing it.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#148
post #96

I don’t get it. I’m mostly very skeptical of the claim of making a positive fingerprint ID through a picture. Has anyone ever heard of this before? Fingerprints are known to be very unreliable and subjective. I’m not convinced this is actually what happened, and not just a cute story pushed by the British law enforcement. Edit: I did find a couple articles talking about technique of lifting prints from photographs, s…

Yeah, the article title should be "Drug dealer caught by online photo that revealed fingerprints". That's the interesting and unexpected part, here. I didn't really know that could be done and hadn't heard of it before; but I suppose it's not too surprising given the prevalence of high-resolution phone cameras, now. I'm guessing what happened was that they were monitoring an anonymous chat group on this EncroChat app…

That's not the full image. The full image (https://twitter.com/MerseyPolice/status/1395783747115618306) has a lot of detail in the palm area - enough to get a match I'd assume, if they have his full palm print on file.

Even if it's not a super high probability match, it could have been enough to give them a name and find more evidence.

I don't buy that they'd make up the story _and then tweet proudly about it_, especially when the image they posted is so easy to be sceptical about because of the blur.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police could have had his prints from his merchandise, or an entirely separate issue, with no idea that they matched a certain until-then anonymous drug dealer known only for his posts on EncroChat.

So they have drug product with prints. They match those to the hand / fingers holding the cheese. Presuming the EncroChat is anonymous, how do they then tie that to the person arrested? Where and how does that happen?

I suspect it's the other way - they have his prints on file already from some previous arrest, and the image linked the incriminating EncroChat account to his real identity through the data already on file.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police could have had his prints from his merchandise, or an entirely separate issue, with no idea that they matched a certain until-then anonymous drug dealer known only for his posts on EncroChat.

So they have drug product with prints. They match those to the hand / fingers holding the cheese. Presuming the EncroChat is anonymous, how do they then tie that to the person arrested? Where and how does that happen?

You are right, under the assumption of anonymity, that alternative does not work. Prints on file for a different reason, such as a prior conviction, would give you an ID.

According to a link from the article, however, EncroChat was cracked last year. Stewart was presumably not one of those arrested at that time, which implies that either this crack did not yield enough information to ID him, or did not yield enough evidence to proceed against him. The former case could be solved if his prints were on file, and in the latter case, his prints might have led to additional evidence which had previously not been attributed to him.

As the article says he was identified by his prints, the former seems much more likely.

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