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How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

jeremyaboyd.com

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Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#281

Post by Spooky23 »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #36
rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

Also, by default Finder seems to hide directory structure from you. This seems to be Apple thinking it'll confuse people if they can see 'up' directories, but I think just as often it confuses people like me who are trying and failing to go up. I use all three major desktop OSes regularly now, and overall Windows just feels like the most user-friendly and straightforward, though of course it too has issues (e.g. vari…

By default, windows hides file extensions and pushes Office to be OneDrive first.

The problem with these features is that people have varying needs and don’t understand or respect what they are! Filing is a great example, everyone keeps files, but most people have no organization. That’s why once upon a time companies hired people to file things. It’s also why Apple tried to kill the file metaphor for iOS.

MacOS has the wacky finder UI, but the search is best in class and once people discover it, they just go away and do their thing.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#282

Post by echelon »

pram wrote: post #274
echelon wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I struggled to change settings Apple's posture is that the defaults are good for most people. Their settings management is second class in all of their products compared to Windows and (especially) Linux and Android.

The implication of there being some kind of cohesive "settings management" in Linux is amusing.

I didn't say cohesive.

I don't have any trouble getting Linux to behave the way I want.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#283

Post by throwaddzuzxd »

mcv wrote: post #271
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

It's not that Windows Explorer is much better, though. I hate how it prefers to display everything as icons instead of details. How it hides files and directories, doesn't show extensions, etc. But there's one thing it gets right: it shows you where you are, and you can edit that to go anywhere. Finder can do that too, but it doesn't show you it can do that. You have to know. I recently got a Macbook from work, parti…

>How it hides files and directories, doesn't show extensions, etc.

Finder does that too. I didn't list it because it can be configured, which is IMO a sensible default for standard users.

>But there's one thing it gets right: it shows you where you are, and you can edit that to go anywhere.

YES! Finder allows to display a breadcrumb at the bottom, but the simplest way to go anywhere is Cmd+Shift+G. It sucks as a shortcut, and even then it's inferior to Explorer.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#284

Post by ryanmccullagh »

rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

And why can't you ever 'close' Finder? One can only hide it.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#285

Post by symlinkk »

jolux wrote: post #124
baryphonic wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uninstalling on macOS is actually pretty tough, since ancillary files are not cleaned up. I end up installing a set of third party utilities whenever I set up a new Mac that help me with a bunch of the weird stuff that isn't handled by default. (including AppCleaner and ShiftIt for uninstallation and window management, respectively). Windows makes it pretty easy with the one "add or remove programs" section of the co…

>Windows makes it pretty easy with the one "add or remove programs" section of the control panel. Except there's no guarantee that uninstallers will remove all ancillary files on Windows either, especially because Windows developers seem to have a habit of just spraying configuration files and serialized state all across the filesystem haphazardly with little concern for organization.

There’s no guarantee, but on average uninstallers clear away a lot more than dragging and dropping an application to the trash.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#286

Post by alexeiz »

He praises the quality of the Apple hardware... He should watch Louis Rossmann's Mac repair videos on Youtube. Apple hardware design is crap. There are hardware design mistakes Louis points out that only rookies would do. Mac repair business is flourishing for a reason (even though Apple is trying to squash it by any means possible).

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#287

Post by mrweasel »

wraptile wrote: post #78
ninkendo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst in windows: Command+Down doesn’t open a folder, and Enter doesn’t rename it. WTF!

Enter _enters_ the file - shocker!

It says ‘Return’ on my keyboard, so “return the file”, return from where?

I’ve used macOS for 16 years, hitting enter/return still feels weird.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#288

Post by tomduncalf »

bayindirh wrote: post #262
turkeywelder wrote: post #203

Recent M1 user here - I had a PowerPC mac back in the Leopard/Tiger days. I thought OSx would have come on leaps and bounds since then. It's....more or less unchanged. As well as this crazy installer thing, there's quite a bit about Macs that just seems off.. My list of "things that don't seem right" as a long term Windows/ChromeOS user - Window snapping isn't built in outside of fullscreen mode (seriously?!) - Sleep…

> Window snapping isn't built in outside of fullscreen mode (seriously?!) You can just install Magnet. It's a little unobtrusive app which can do neat things with windows. > Sleeping the mac does not sleep the mac, it wakes up at all sorts of times Power Nap is useful. When I open my Mac in the morning everything is updated from mail to apps. It doesn't turn on fans on older Macs for smaller tasks too. You can turn i…

> command+down enters the folders and files

Or Cmd+O, which feels easier to remember to me (o = open)

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#289

Post by samatman »

Kwpolska wrote: post #258
allenu wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do Windows app with zero windows work? The reason it’s doable on macOS is because the menu bar is always there.

They live in the tray, aka notification area.

That's not the same thing though.

macOS has those also, programs can live on the menu bar.

But in macOS, closing the last window basically never exits the program. Even for a program like Element, which is just an Electron view, closing the window doesn't quit the program, even though what's left over is useless: there's no way to relaunch the Electron pane except to quit and start it again.

This is just how macOS works: if you want to quit, you type Cmd-Q, if you want to close windows, red button or Cmd-W, and closing windows won't quit your program.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#290

Post by lucideer »

allenu wrote: post #139
lucideer wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a common view held by experienced computer users, because they don't consider which parts of their own usage patterns are a component of their advanced knowledge, and which are inherent to all users. For example: an experienced user is more likely to notice that closing a window in macOS backgrounds the app, and more likely to figure out how to fully exit the app process completely (either via Cmd+Q o…

I think you mean “experienced Windows user using macOS”. What you describe are consistent design choices on the Mac. If you flipped things around and only knew Macs and went to Windows, you might be surprised that closing a window there exits an app! There’s no reason one behavior is more correct than the other.

I didn't imply otherwise? Did you mean to reply to the gp comment?

I'd say both behaviours could be equally surprising to any user, regardless of their previous OS biases but either way that's not really related to the point I was making.

I was just saying that an inexperienced user will notice technical details less (e.g. the ramifications of processes continuing to run in the background without windows, the dock status indicators showing they're still open, the fact they show up in the app switcher, etc.) and as such won't be inclined to "take control" of that default behaviour in a way that an experienced user might, due to their heightened awareness of it.

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