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How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

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Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#271

Post by mcv »

throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205
rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

It's not that Windows Explorer is much better, though. I hate how it prefers to display everything as icons instead of details. How it hides files and directories, doesn't show extensions, etc. But there's one thing it gets right: it shows you where you are, and you can edit that to go anywhere.

Finder can do that too, but it doesn't show you it can do that. You have to know. I recently got a Macbook from work, partially because a Mac-fan coworker had been bugging me to switch from Windows to Mac. At some point I was showing something and typed a path straight into Finder, which blew his mind! He'd been using Macs for ages, and he just wasn't aware that Finder could do that. He learned something useful and new, but it's also quite telling that even some experienced Mac users aren't aware of the existence of such a vital feature.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#272

Post by bane »

coldtea wrote: post #256
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

> - There's no way to create an empty file Create it for what? To use to launch the app that handles it? Just open the respective app and save an empty or unedited file. > - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) Copy as regularly (Cmd-C), and use Option-Cmd-V to move the file where you want to. > - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned Not sure what you mean. >…

You successfully managed to confirm all of the parent's complaints by showing that they aren't achievable in Finder, or don't follow a consistent convention and have to be done some other way.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#273

Post by noahmasur »

throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205
rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

@coldtea already pointed out some tips, but some others to note:

> - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned

Press CMD-J to open up the visual option, you can auto group and sort, snap to grid (unsorted), choose a default view.

> - No "parent folder"...

You can either press CMD-UpArrow or just right click on the title bar to see all the folders above it.

> It has less cool features (no tabs for instance) but is so much better to actually use.

Windows Explorer is also missing column view, which is a much faster way to navigate the file system completely with the keyboard. I'm often frustrated in Windows Explorer just trying to move around directories.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#274

Post by pram »

echelon wrote: post #38
rationalData wrote: post #27

My grandparents got iPhones (during COVID) because they were supposed to be easy. Wow, that's just the marketing. The jargon was outside their understanding, and unless we were physically looking at the phone, we couldn't guess what word in the Appstore meant Download. And it got worse, the requests/requirement to login with Apple ID on various occasions were frustrating. And from a tech geek, I had a work IPhone whe…

> I struggled to change settings Apple's posture is that the defaults are good for most people. Their settings management is second class in all of their products compared to Windows and (especially) Linux and Android.

The implication of there being some kind of cohesive "settings management" in Linux is amusing.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#275

Post by cronix »

layoutIfNeeded wrote: post #147
ForHackernews wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just use [spacebar] on any view to open up the image in spotlight? Just press a random key on the keyboard? How exactly is that intuitive? Keyboard shortcuts are the absolute worst for discoverability.

But they are the best for productivity.

As long as people can find them, in order to use them.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#276

Post by tryonenow »

coldtea wrote: post #256
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

> - There's no way to create an empty file Create it for what? To use to launch the app that handles it? Just open the respective app and save an empty or unedited file. > - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) Copy as regularly (Cmd-C), and use Option-Cmd-V to move the file where you want to. > - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned Not sure what you mean. >…

How is any of this intuitive?

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#277

Post by dnh44 »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #123
TulliusCicero wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, by default Finder seems to hide directory structure from you. This seems to be Apple thinking it'll confuse people if they can see 'up' directories, but I think just as often it confuses people like me who are trying and failing to go up. I use all three major desktop OSes regularly now, and overall Windows just feels like the most user-friendly and straightforward, though of course it too has issues (e.g. vari…

You have to customise MacOS to show full file paths and hidden files. Someone at Apple decided that users couldn't be trusted with that super-secret information, but anyone who reads HN is going to find that frustrating. I go back to Windows occasionally and I still hate every single thing about it. The tiles, the file system, the telemetry, the intrusive updates that guarantee I'll have to wait for an undefined time…

FYI the most recent version of macOS (Big Sur) is v11.3; but I know what you mean.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#278

Post by mrweasel »

datalus wrote: post #25
rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

I started off as a Windows user, but in college I switched to I think OS X Tiger at the time. To me, it was a pretty impressive upgrade & I had a *nix terminal at my disposal. But imo macOS has been running on the same UX upgrade since it started calling itself OS X. I think this sentiment largely comes from the era when Microsoft Windows XP was the dominant Windows flavor and also the ME/Vista debacles.

I switch at around the same time and I had the exact same experience. You can use your Mac pretty much the same way you did 15 years ago. Some of the newer stuff is a little annoying, there’s basically “to much” operating system and it sometimes get in the way.

The article isn’t wrong though, so things do seem a bit weird if you don’t know they work. MacOS is far from perfect, it is however much more consistent than Windows.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#279

Post by alkonaut »

cytzol wrote: post #215
yalogin wrote: post #193

If anything for a first time user Macs are less intuitive. The whole window system is very different from everything out there. The app does not die when you close the window. One other thing the author forgot to mention is, in most cases one has to eject the DMG manually and then delete it if you want to clean up your downloads folder. Else you will just have this mounted until the next reboot. I know many people th…

> The whole window system is very different from everything out there. The app does not die when you close the window. But that's one of my favourite things about it! I remember one time when I had to use Windows after being away from its window-based paradigm (rather than an application-based paradigm) for several years. I had a single window open in Sublime Text, and I wanted to close that window then open a new on…

Keeping the application running when the last main form is closed is a Mac-ism enabled only by global application menu. It has benefits and drawbacks, but it's pretty clear that without it there is no intuitive way to do that.

I can assure you that I repeat the fumbling you describe but the other way around on mac. It's just two different UXes and which operations they allow (or can be intuitively done) will differ because of some fundamental earlier choices such as e.g. how many mouse buttons the user can be expected to have, or whether a program can show a global menu.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#280

Post by schnebbau »

coldtea wrote: post #256
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

> - There's no way to create an empty file Create it for what? To use to launch the app that handles it? Just open the respective app and save an empty or unedited file. > - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) Copy as regularly (Cmd-C), and use Option-Cmd-V to move the file where you want to. > - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned Not sure what you mean. >…

So basically "you're holding it wrong".
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