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How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

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Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#241

Post by andreasley »

perardi wrote: post #226
turkeywelder wrote: post #203

Recent M1 user here - I had a PowerPC mac back in the Leopard/Tiger days. I thought OSx would have come on leaps and bounds since then. It's....more or less unchanged. As well as this crazy installer thing, there's quite a bit about Macs that just seems off.. My list of "things that don't seem right" as a long term Windows/ChromeOS user - Window snapping isn't built in outside of fullscreen mode (seriously?!) - Sleep…

Sleeping the mac does not sleep the mac, it wakes up at all sorts of times This sure used to work. My 16-inch MacBook Pro (as in, the new keyboard model) just does not want to stay asleep if the screen is open. Even if I put it in Do Not Disturb mode, notifications (like my nightly reminder to take my melatonin) wake it up, seemingly no matter what option I toggle.

My 16-inch MacBook Pro sleeps just fine.

I assume you have Power Nap disabled and no devices attached that try to wake the MacBook?

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#242

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

sudosysgen wrote: post #150
cytzol wrote: post #113

This post illuminates two ways in which users' expectations of computers have changed since the '80s, which is when this UX was designed: 1) Users don't deal with external storage nearly as much anymore, so the "disk image" paradigm feels out of place. Before the Internet, it was more common to insert a floppy disk, drag the application from the disk to the hard drive, and then eject it again. Users were accustomed t…

But you haven't described how to uninstall an app. You described how to remove the program directory, which would be the same as deleting the folder in Program File on windows. Changes to system config won't be rolled back and other files won't be cleaned up. That's why on Mac OS you sometimes have to get an uninstaller, which sucks because now you have an inconsistency.

> Changes to system config won't be rolled back and other files won't be cleaned up.

These didn't exist on the original Macs[0], and I would argue that they shouldn't exist on any Desktop OS.

[0] Unless you count Extensions, which were still drag-and-drop but to a special folder under System.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#243

Post by vladvasiliu »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #36
rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

Also, by default Finder seems to hide directory structure from you. This seems to be Apple thinking it'll confuse people if they can see 'up' directories, but I think just as often it confuses people like me who are trying and failing to go up. I use all three major desktop OSes regularly now, and overall Windows just feels like the most user-friendly and straightforward, though of course it too has issues (e.g. vari…

I agree that Finder is somewhat weird in regard to hierarchies, but it all makes sense if you get to know it: basically, you can move around with CMD+Arrow. Up goes up a directory, down goes down a directory (or opens the file). Left / Right go forward / back in history, like a browser.

I'm not sure Windows is such a great example in the conversation about file systems, what with its "collections" and abstract hierarchy which is sometimes upside down and somewhat – but not fully! – circular.

Open an explorer window, click on your name under "quick access". You're in the home directory. You also have a "Desktop" folder there. Go in there. You see your desktop files. So far so good.

Now go back to your user folder and click "up". You're now in "desktop". What?! Only now, there's other stuff in there. How many desktops are there?!

Now go back to your user folder, choose any folder. Click on the address bar. C:\users\your_name\your_folder. Click twice "up", you expect to be in C:\users, right? Ha!

Now type C:\users\your_name\your_folder, or browse through the C:\ in the left pane. Click the address bar and compare with earlier. Now click up. Very intuitive. Depending on how you got somewhere, your apparent hierarchy is not the same.

Back to the "quick collection" thing, there's a desktop entry there. Click it. Looks like the first desktop folder, so no surprise here, right?. Click up. You end up in "my computer"!

Now, do the same operations in Finder. How many different desktops are there? Not sure how Windows is more logical or user-friendly.

I side with the other poster who said that most "common users" just don't understand file systems, and so they put everything on the desktop because it doesn't go away.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#244

Post by LocalPCGuy »

FabHK wrote: post #136
TulliusCicero wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, by default Finder seems to hide directory structure from you. This seems to be Apple thinking it'll confuse people if they can see 'up' directories, but I think just as often it confuses people like me who are trying and failing to go up. I use all three major desktop OSes regularly now, and overall Windows just feels like the most user-friendly and straightforward, though of course it too has issues (e.g. vari…

> trying and failing to go up Cmd-click on the folder in the Finder window title, and go up as far as you want?

This is the thing about Macs - people think they are intuitive because they have learned how to use them over X number of years. Including, I believe, those building the OS at Apple. But for a person who isn't familiar with them, they are absolutely not intuitive.

And any time there is a complaint, the community is like "Oh, dummy, just do this thing that is not obvious at all, how could you not figure that out?"

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#245

Post by rvalue »

quoting from the post

>> but I switched to Mac because the hardware is just better than even the best Windows hardware for the same price, and the software typically JUST WORKS.

author claims Windows to be a superior operating system but "just works", isn't that the clearer signal to better software?

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#246

Post by Angostura »

throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205
rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

I use tags all the time, so Im not sure why you find them useless. And what do you mean - no parent folder?

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#247

Post by TurningCanadian »

klodolph wrote: post #217
bsanr2 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You could save the file somewhere else, and drag the file (perhaps from the icon in the title bar) into the folder. You can do this in Windows. Save the file, open the save dialog again, drag the file icon to the Explorer window with the folder you want open. Hold shift to toggle copy/move.

Don't you have to close the document first?

Not on Linux

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#248

Post by turkeywelder »

coldtea wrote: post #221
turkeywelder wrote: post #203

Recent M1 user here - I had a PowerPC mac back in the Leopard/Tiger days. I thought OSx would have come on leaps and bounds since then. It's....more or less unchanged. As well as this crazy installer thing, there's quite a bit about Macs that just seems off.. My list of "things that don't seem right" as a long term Windows/ChromeOS user - Window snapping isn't built in outside of fullscreen mode (seriously?!) - Sleep…

> - Window snapping isn't built in outside of fullscreen mode (seriously?!) As if that's a major future? (seriously?!) > - Sleeping the mac does not sleep the mac, it wakes up at all sorts of times It sleeps just fine for me, across half a dozen of Macs over 2 decades. > - TouchID for login works....but not often enough - it constantly pesters me for a password Like the first time after a boot/login? > - Pressing ent…

> Like the first time after a boot/login?

More often than that - I knew it'd ask on fresh boot, but this is after switching users or just a night where it pretends to sleep. I'm still tracking it down and figuring out the scenarios. I'm not averse to it as an OS, I just want to understand why it's done something when it has.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#249

Post by allenu »

jbverschoor wrote: post #165
allenu wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mean “experienced Windows user using macOS”. What you describe are consistent design choices on the Mac. If you flipped things around and only knew Macs and went to Windows, you might be surprised that closing a window there exits an app! There’s no reason one behavior is more correct than the other.

That’s only by convention. Both OSes have an application with 0-x windows. macOS is just more transparent

How do Windows app with zero windows work? The reason it’s doable on macOS is because the menu bar is always there.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#250

Post by luka-birsa »

coldtea wrote: post #221
turkeywelder wrote: post #203

Recent M1 user here - I had a PowerPC mac back in the Leopard/Tiger days. I thought OSx would have come on leaps and bounds since then. It's....more or less unchanged. As well as this crazy installer thing, there's quite a bit about Macs that just seems off.. My list of "things that don't seem right" as a long term Windows/ChromeOS user - Window snapping isn't built in outside of fullscreen mode (seriously?!) - Sleep…

> - Window snapping isn't built in outside of fullscreen mode (seriously?!) As if that's a major future? (seriously?!) > - Sleeping the mac does not sleep the mac, it wakes up at all sorts of times It sleeps just fine for me, across half a dozen of Macs over 2 decades. > - TouchID for login works....but not often enough - it constantly pesters me for a password Like the first time after a boot/login? > - Pressing ent…

Love the "It works for me" ethos. Very popular amongst us IT guys. Sadly not much help to the OP.

If we want to have better products, we need to address issues that people have using them. Apple UX is slowly eroding over time, to the point that I planned to move to Windows camp after the forced replacement of my MBP.

Sadly or thankfully M1 really helped to put a curb into those plans :).

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