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Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

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Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#611

Post by Someone »

reader_mode wrote: post #546
Someone wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on what arguments? If Apple’s cut were 12% and Epic and Microsoft now charged 6%, would you claim “The 12% that Apple charges seems about right IMO” ?

Yep, if someone is able to maintain above market level profits for so long it's usually a sign of monopolistic pricing. That's not necessarily bad, but in Apples case it's just double dipping on their monopolistic position and is clearly a drain on the market with no benefit. They have the same incentives to invest in R&D and support the ecosystem on the insane HW margins alone, I'd be willing to bet their dev budget…

But how do you know 12% is about right, and not 10%, 2%, …

Also, Apple will claim they have a better product that warrants higher margins. Data from independent parties shows that they attract more users willing to pay for apps, and developers aren’t leaving en masse for Android.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#612

Post by testific8 »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #583
Zak wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an important distinction here in that Apple is a for-profit company, not a government. It responds to market forces, not democratic ones. Its motivation is profit and shareholder value, not some semblance of fairness or a good society. > most people just want a safe app store We already have an example of how users behave when there's a platform that has a default app store and the ability to install others:…

I would argue that the US government is also a for-profit government, don't give up your rights so quickly to them. At least with Apple you know what they want: money. With government it could be money, a power play, government official looking to get on the map (ambition), a policy lobbied for by a bought off politician, etc

You can argue that all you like, but it is a ridiculous point. It's not perfect, but most of the time democracy works. This much is self evident.

If you are comparing the difference between having a company in charge of public health and a democratic government, you might as well compare the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy. Customers are not stakeholders in the same way that citizens are stakeholders.

When the public is angry at the government, heads will roll. When the public is angry at corporations, heads will glide down in golden parachutes.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#613

Post by erikpukinskis »

The only aspect of the Apple App Store that strikes me as truly anticompetitive is their prohibition on adjusting prices to include Apple’s fees, or even to tell the user what they are.

I can accept that Apple can demand a 30% fee for billing customers on their devices. And I can accept that they would prohibit installation/sales of software any other way. But I should be allowed to mark up the price by 30% and then call it out as a line item.

The fact that Apple can control what prices I set on other platforms and prohibit me from disclosing what’s happening to my users...

That is the part of this that strikes me as dystopian, and that’s the area where I think antitrust and free speech laws perhaps ought to step in.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#614

Post by paulmd »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #589
jrsj wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because my grandma is clueless and I give her an iPhone so she doesn’t install malware like she managed to on her Android phone

So your Grandma installed apks? I find that hard to believe. The google store has a slightly worse history for malware than the Apple Store but not that much worse, especially relative to PC malware. Also anecdotes generally don't prove much in the greater scheme of "Android is a malware platform and your grandmother is going to get a virus"

why is that hard to believe? literal children do it to get fortnite. any site that is trying to get you to sideload will have convenient instructions for how to do it.

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-get-fortnite-on-andro...

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#615

Post by madeofpalk »

grey_earthling wrote: post #574
saurik wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Apple let developers tell users about other payment methods, Cook said later, “we would in essence give up our total return on our IP.” Apple believes ("insists"?) that they deserve a cut of your app's revenue--however you might collect the money--because your app is using their "IP" in the form of all the libraries and tooling they nigh unto force you to use to build apps that run on their phone; like, to them,…

You're paying for access to their userbase.

And the userbase is there because of the apps.

Let’s not pretend Apple doesn’t also benefit from having apps in its store and on its phone.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#616

Post by brisance »

stephc_int13 wrote: post #596
saurik wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Apple let developers tell users about other payment methods, Cook said later, “we would in essence give up our total return on our IP.” Apple believes ("insists"?) that they deserve a cut of your app's revenue--however you might collect the money--because your app is using their "IP" in the form of all the libraries and tooling they nigh unto force you to use to build apps that run on their phone; like, to them,…

The largest part of app store revenue is games, most games use only a small subset of Apple APIs, and very often only because Apple is not supporting industry standards (like Vulkan or OpenGL)

This is a good argument that it isn't a monopoly.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#617

Post by mthoms »

llukas wrote: post #598
mthoms wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers won't leave the App Store if Apple are offering good value to them and their customers. If Apple stops offering good value (fair policies, commissions), then Apple should be "punished" by losing business. Offering competing stores provides a strong incentive for Apple to make theirs even better. Developers would win and consumers would win. The only "loser" would be Apple (at least as far as short term fin…

Facebook, instagram or any ad-backed app users are the product not the customer.

Granted. But the underlying principle is the same, no? If Apple is offering better discovery, consumer protections, policies and support, then they should have the better store experience.

For the record, I think they are offering the best experience at present (by a long shot). That isn't guaranteed going forward though, and I believe competition here would be healthy.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#618

Post by madeofpalk »

saurik wrote: post #24
jorams wrote: post #16

> “IAP helps Apple efficiently collect a commission” — for payment processing, but also customer service and the use of Apple’s intellectual property. Without in-app purchases, “we would have to come up with another system to invoice developers, which I think would be a mess.” If Apple let developers tell users about other payment methods, Cook said later, “we would in essence give up our total return on our IP.” App…

> If Apple let developers tell users about other payment methods, Cook said later, “we would in essence give up our total return on our IP.” Apple believes ("insists"?) that they deserve a cut of your app's revenue--however you might collect the money--because your app is using their "IP" in the form of all the libraries and tooling they nigh unto force you to use to build apps that run on their phone; like, to them,…

Really it’s not that specific - all the APIs and features is just back-solving to justify their core belief that iPhone is God’s gift to developers and the economy, and Apple deserves a cut of all (digital) commerce that happens on it.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#619

Post by yesenadam »

"in 2020, Apple’s app store commission revenue was close to $15bn, which was larger than total global revenue from the entire digital music industry... Around 90% of this revenue comes from games, and almost all of that comes from in-app purchases."

https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2021/5/13/apples-ads...

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#620

Post by mbesto »

deergomoo wrote: post #56

> Cook used more privacy and safety claims to defend that system, saying it would be both insecure and inconvenient to let apps process payments separately This one is always funny to me, because sellers of physical goods are of course totally exempt from IAP rules, because it would be untenable otherwise. I can type my card number directly into the Amazon app and buy a paperback without any intervention from Apple.…

> And yet it’s apparently insecure for me to buy a Kindle book with the exact same mechanism in the exact same app? Get the fuck out of here.

Gonna play the devil's advocate here.

If I pay for a physical good, I have an expectation of continued use of that physical good absent of the use the technology medium I used to pay for it. If I buy a physical book and Amazon shut down, I can still read the book.

If I pay for a digital good that uses Apple's hardware in some shape or form (Kindle is a weird grey area because you could technically use an Amazon Kindle device, but that is an edge case) then giving Apple money provides an expectation that they continue to commercially support App Developers. A great example - App Store guidelines that enforce a yearly update (or whatever the cadence is) to the app store so that developers don't get lazy and their apps break with new releases of iOS. I think this is effectively what Cook is saying - we need an economic incentive to keep app developers honest and in a symbiotic relationship with them.

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