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Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

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51–60 of 67 posts

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#51
post #38

> A group of nonnative English speakers is in a room .. then an American walks into the room .. understanding goes down. I work in a research group with a lot of international people across Europe and elsewhere. As an American there for years, I got used to doing what they say here, speaking at the lowest common denominator, but when a new native English speaker (could be British or Australian too) enters, the same e…

> it all dries up with the first French person because largely they are mostly intolerant of poorly spoken French As a French person surrounded by non native speakers, I am sad to hear this. Many French people should quit their elitism with respect to the language and start bothering about the content instead. Languages are tools, not an end in themselves (they are also a very interesting topic). It is still useful f…

A good outlook but you are one of few.

Sadly I gave up studying French and focused on Russian and German. I have experience in all countries and after being in France I was so disheartened I gave up. My uni grades for French reflect this :(

The joy of a Russian who hears you at least try to speak Russian vs. the French baker who barks at you in response in English

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#52
post #20

I’m not in the same boat as the folks in these articles who’ve clearly suffered much worse treatment. I had a relatively easy time. But personally, I hated it when someone complimented my English. It felt infantilising, like how it would feel if someone appreciated you for tying your shoelaces all by yourself. The next time an American or British or Australian person tells me how good my English is, I’m telling them…

What about ‘For how long exactly have you lived in Britain?’

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#53
post #20

I’m not in the same boat as the folks in these articles who’ve clearly suffered much worse treatment. I had a relatively easy time. But personally, I hated it when someone complimented my English. It felt infantilising, like how it would feel if someone appreciated you for tying your shoelaces all by yourself. The next time an American or British or Australian person tells me how good my English is, I’m telling them…

>It felt infantilising, like how it would feel if someone appreciated you for tying your shoelaces all by yourself.

I've been places (particularly Asia) where people were actually impressed that I learned a handful of words/phrases to be polite. Like do you think I'm too arrogant or stupid to take the time to learn a bit of a language that isn't English?

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#54

Something I notice as a nonnative speaker is that my fellow nonnative speakers often try really hard to sound British. They put more effort into sounding the right way than actually trying to use the language correctly and increasing their vocabulary. Quite often people get praise for their "good" English because they've adopted a British accent even when their grammar isn't right or use words with the wrong meaning.…

The bad gains respect through imitation, the good loses it especially in art.

- Friedrich Nietzsche

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#55

Well, growing up in SJC/SV/SF, nonnative speakers were many: roommates, girlfriends, coworkers, and more. Heck, one of my first girlfriends and I could barely communicate verbally: but it wasn't really a problem when gestures, simple words, and "thought synchronization" explained ideas more efficiently and succinctly than learning each others' complex languages. The other thing is immersion doesn't necessarily seem l…

>there seems to be an incredible amount of variation in language and accent mastery that doesn't improve with experience (or above a fuzzy, certain age).

A friend of mine is Dutch, he moved to England to study for his master's degree, then to Germany for work.

His English sounds perfectly British (very neutral, though), his German sounds perfectly German.

Granted Dutch has elements of German and English in pronunciation and vocabulary, but it's still impressive how some can learn a language without accent, even at a higher age.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#56

I don't think people should adjust themselves in their own country. They don't need to simplify their language just because there are immigrants, it is their own culture and day by day communication, requesting it will be rude. However when abroad they should adjust themselves to the other non native English speakers. Also regarding English tests, it goes both ways, many Chinese students in Australia pass those tests…

I think people should adjust based on who they are talking to. If you are talking to someone with limited English skills, and you actually want to be understood, you'll adjust your manner of speaking. Where you are geographically seems irrelevant if the goal is communication.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#57
My wife is a non-native speaker of English. I understand what they're talking about but they're mixing up two separate things--language usage and accent.

She definitely has an accent but it rarely is an issue. (There are a few words that mess her up badly, though.)

Much more of an issue is language usage. She has learned the words she needs to communicate (but will often be tripped up by uncommon words) but fares poorly with the little words that glue the language together. A recent example, "I eat myself" instead of "I'll eat it myself". The important concepts are in what she said, but with the glue missing the meaning changes greatly. Another weak speaker would probably understand it fine as the important concepts are there and they would arrange them to fit (but occasionally misarrange), but a native speaker not used to it very well might have trouble.

There's also the issue of sentence complexity. Think of books for little kids, how everything is broken up into simple thoughts. If their language uses the same sentence structure as we do it wouldn't be a problem, but if it doesn't they won't be able to properly build a mental map of what the sentence is saying without bits hanging off until the end.

I used to say that if you told my wife that if you can get to it in one minute there is a million dollars in a box on the back right of the second shelf of the refrigerator that she would have no hope of getting it, but if you told her there is a million dollars in the refrigerator, on the second shelf, in the back right in a box she would go right to it.

Note how it's easier for us to process the first way of saying it, the second feels wrong. For her, however, the second is normal, the first leaves too many hanging bits and she wouldn't be able to follow it.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#58
post #6

Sadly I also experienced a native (Canadian iirc) speaker mocking me for my pronunciation of 'power'. Indeed, I used heavy German accent on that specific situation, because I was excited at that moment. It shocked me quite a bit and I didn't know what to do back then. Now I can laugh it off - English was my first foreign language but only one of three in total back then. And it must have sound funny (like Arnold Schw…

I've been guilty of doing this to my German friends, as well, but it's because I consider their English almost native level. It's the same to me as pointing out to a Texan that I find their pronunciation funny. In a strange way it's a compliment to them, but after reading your post I will remember to be more thoughtful about how things like that could be perceived.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#59
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it all dries up with the first French person because largely they are mostly intolerant of poorly spoken French As a French person surrounded by non native speakers, I am sad to hear this. Many French people should quit their elitism with respect to the language and start bothering about the content instead. Languages are tools, not an end in themselves (they are also a very interesting topic). It is still useful f…

A good outlook but you are one of few. Sadly I gave up studying French and focused on Russian and German. I have experience in all countries and after being in France I was so disheartened I gave up. My uni grades for French reflect this :( The joy of a Russian who hears you at least try to speak Russian vs. the French baker who barks at you in response in English

> the French baker who barks at you in response in English

Not the first time I hear this. Unfortunately there are still many places where people don't speak English or are plain hostile to English. It's probably improving as more and more people are far more exposed to English with TV shows and things like that than before.

Not all places are equal. For now, you are probably better off targeting a city where it is usual to have a lot of strangers, because there is a big university welcoming many foreign students for instance.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#60

Something I notice as a nonnative speaker is that my fellow nonnative speakers often try really hard to sound British. They put more effort into sounding the right way than actually trying to use the language correctly and increasing their vocabulary. Quite often people get praise for their "good" English because they've adopted a British accent even when their grammar isn't right or use words with the wrong meaning.…

The bad gains respect through imitation, the good loses it especially in art. - Friedrich Nietzsche

In this quote, what is meant by "respect through imitation" - imitating, or being imitated?
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