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Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

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31–40 of 67 posts

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#31
post #6

Sadly I also experienced a native (Canadian iirc) speaker mocking me for my pronunciation of 'power'. Indeed, I used heavy German accent on that specific situation, because I was excited at that moment. It shocked me quite a bit and I didn't know what to do back then. Now I can laugh it off - English was my first foreign language but only one of three in total back then. And it must have sound funny (like Arnold Schw…

Our "Anglo" nations are mostly monolingual, but take it for granted that everyone else should speak English. As a result we sometimes forget how much effort was put into learning it, probably partly because we ourselves never achieved the equivalent.

It could be that your English is so good, that individual mistakes (here I'm going to be guilty of using an idiom) stick out like a sore thumb! You were probably right to be proud

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#32
I failed to find where this old quote came from, but I recall being taught that for practical purposes it's best to "Understand the long words but use the short ones" - even though it was intended for headlines and written communication, it's applicable to speech.

The article does seem to mix up "accent" with word use though (I was going to say "conflate" but then I'd fail the above rule!) Problems with word use seem much more legitimate to raise than accent - so long as an accent can be understood, it's rarely a problem and "correcting" it is rude and unnecessary, but in cases where word use is simply incorrect and confusing, it seems fair to try to get people on the right track (politely of course).

In my experience a number of these usage problems come from incorrectly inferring the meaning of a word commonly done by an overconfident speaker and much as being inclusive is nice if you use the wrong word that actually means something else it's not helpful for anyone's understanding, native or nonnative.

The main criticism I would have of the article is that it doesn't really support the case that nonnative understanding is undermined by the presence of native speakers - it feels like it's just taken as given because it's easily pointed to rather than having a basis in any serious evidence. It could quite easily be that without any native speakers the nonnative speakers merely think they all understand each other.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#33

> "Professor C leaned back in his chair and repeated in a dramatic mock British accent, 'Intervene!' " The professor was drawing attention to Rodríguez's way of pronouncing the word. > "Nowadays," Rodríguez notes, "I would have filed a grievance against [this professor] so heavy that he would have had to sell his soul to remain employed." It must be fun to be a member of a humanities department today. I imagine every…

Tangential, but I can't imagine how Rodriguez was pronouncing intervene that would sound odd to an American. The British pronunciation, with or without the r, seems extremely close to standard "good" US English. I can imagine US dialects where it's slurred into something more like "innavene" but the professor was hardly mocking him for not speaking like that.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#34
Something I notice as a nonnative speaker is that my fellow nonnative speakers often try really hard to sound British. They put more effort into sounding the right way than actually trying to use the language correctly and increasing their vocabulary.

Quite often people get praise for their "good" English because they've adopted a British accent even when their grammar isn't right or use words with the wrong meaning.

Personally I don't care if someone speaks English with a Spanish, German, French, Dutch, Indian, Swedish, or any other accent. Americans don't sound like Brits, Brits don't sound like Kiwis, Kiwis don't sound like Canadians, but they're all native speakers. I prefer someone who can communicate effectively in the language over someone who can fake an accent the best.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#35
post #20

I’m not in the same boat as the folks in these articles who’ve clearly suffered much worse treatment. I had a relatively easy time. But personally, I hated it when someone complimented my English. It felt infantilising, like how it would feel if someone appreciated you for tying your shoelaces all by yourself. The next time an American or British or Australian person tells me how good my English is, I’m telling them…

[deleted]

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#36
I don't think people should adjust themselves in their own country. They don't need to simplify their language just because there are immigrants, it is their own culture and day by day communication, requesting it will be rude. However when abroad they should adjust themselves to the other non native English speakers.

Also regarding English tests, it goes both ways, many Chinese students in Australia pass those tests but can't communicate in English to save their lives, let alone do an academic assignments.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#37
post #23

> A group of nonnative English speakers is in a room .. then an American walks into the room .. understanding goes down. I work in a research group with a lot of international people across Europe and elsewhere. As an American there for years, I got used to doing what they say here, speaking at the lowest common denominator, but when a new native English speaker (could be British or Australian too) enters, the same e…

As a Russian I did a hitchhiking tour over Northern Europe when I was young, and while I gained some "fluency" in English as a result, the quality of my language use dropped noticeably. Not only because I was forced to use the first language construct I can pull from my head, but also I had to simplify it to be understood. Being personally interested in equality, acceptance etc. etc. I find it sad to see more sophist…

I agree, and it's not just the loss of that rich communication in other languages but in English as well.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#38

> A group of nonnative English speakers is in a room .. then an American walks into the room .. understanding goes down. I work in a research group with a lot of international people across Europe and elsewhere. As an American there for years, I got used to doing what they say here, speaking at the lowest common denominator, but when a new native English speaker (could be British or Australian too) enters, the same e…

> it all dries up with the first French person because largely they are mostly intolerant of poorly spoken French

As a French person surrounded by non native speakers, I am sad to hear this. Many French people should quit their elitism with respect to the language and start bothering about the content instead. Languages are tools, not an end in themselves (they are also a very interesting topic).

It is still useful for non native speaker to be corrected and they usually appreciate it (foreigners has told me many times that French people don't correct them enough and they were happy I did). They usually want to improve! There are ways to do it without disrupting the conversation:

- come back to a mistake at a later point after the conversation is over - a correction should not interrupt the conversation taking place, except maybe for critical mistakes or to fix an ambiguity (and then it's often better to ask than to blindly correct, because it feels better for everybody and sometimes you are just wrong). It's already hard to speak in another language, it should be clear to everyone that making mistakes is not important. It's better to let people express themselves intuitively, smoothly, with mistakes, than a conversation where they have to think hard about the grammar and the language and where it is difficult to express themeself.

- pick frequent mistakes

- mistakes are a great opportunity to have interesting discussions about both the native language(s) of the speaker and the language being spoken. I've been learning many things thanks to this kind of discussions and they probably make me better in English.

- keep in mind that you are probably an absolute shit in the native language of the person compared to their level in yours, and they are actually doing very well.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with making language mistakes, don't be a dick about them.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#39

I failed to find where this old quote came from, but I recall being taught that for practical purposes it's best to "Understand the long words but use the short ones" - even though it was intended for headlines and written communication, it's applicable to speech. The article does seem to mix up "accent" with word use though (I was going to say "conflate" but then I'd fail the above rule!) Problems with word use seem…

I've got a feeling that in the case of version/virgin it was more about the accent than the word choice. After all, in Russian it is almost the same: версия, but it has regular s. The way Russians tend to pronounce it may sound like a very hard "zh" making it close to "g" sound.

Also, it would be very sad to see idioms go. If one is learning a language they should learn its idioms too. Every language has them and sometimes it is fun to see whether they are just a direct translations or something entirely different.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#40

Most of the time, the non-native speakers learn English from the books instead of absorbing the local dialects/nuances since they don't hear people around them speaking English. However, depending on the quality of books / teachers, this means they pick-up a weird/artificial view of English (speaking is still difficult because you don't get to do it everyday - this is changing though). Then when one lands a job requi…

"do the needful" is found in British English books from the 19th century.[1] I suspect it's officialese that never went out of usage in bureaucratic and judicial circles in former colonies. [1] : https://www.google.com/search?q=%22do%20the%20needful%22&tbm...

This is the correct explanation.

Also: it's not common, but still acceptable and not weird at all in some languages, like the Portuguese "fazer o necessário".

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