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Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

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Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#381

Post by c22 »

the_only_law wrote: post #328
throwaway6734 wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Or worse job opportunities. Then people tell you to move where the jobs are. Which has really expensive housing. This is not entirely true. I live in Baltimore City and there's cheap housing + access to the great tech market between baltimore and dc

I understand Baltimore has insanely cheap housing for its size, but I’ve always imagined it as a Detroit like situation, where yeah the housing is often cheap, but not areas you want to live. It may not actually be as bad as I think though.

Last time I was in Baltimore was probably 15 years ago, but from the terrible street/traffic design to my general feelings of personal safety it was, holistically, the worst city I have ever visited.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#382

Post by proc0 »

phobosanomaly wrote: post #374
proc0 wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The correlate to the people you are describing in the United States are referred to as the 'homeless.' It really isn't, and I'm assuming you have never been to Brasil, Bolivia, Peru (Venezuela is out of the question for travelers, but also another example), not to mention Central America and parts of Mexico, I'm sure. We're talking about inter-generational poverty. People having absolutely no knowledge of what it's…

I was just responding to your assertion that poverty doesn't really exist in the United States. It's not as widespread as in Latin America, and tends to be more sporadic, but there are hundreds of thousands of people living in tents and improvised shelters with no access to running water or electricity and no hope for the future here. The United States is no more a homogeneous bloc of wealth and prosperity than Latin…

It wasn't my intention to be lecturing, sorry. My point was around the perception of what poor is, given the article. Rich people can't understand poor people in the US, and I'm pointing out this happens on every level at the global scale. It's easy to lose perspective and think that because you're in a tent in SF or Seattle, that means you know the extent of what it means to be poor, when in fact they have some resources, help, and opportunities.

This is visible when you compare and contrast those immigrants that cross the border with the homeless population. Of course not all homeless people are the same, but I believe the contrast is clear, immigrants have a hard time getting here but when they do they still work as hard as they can, and from my experience they are more than happy doing so. Their previous situation was so bad, they are happy to be cleaning, farming, gardening etc., because it's so much better than where they came from in Latin America. This attitude difference is directly coming from their perspective of poverty.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#383

Post by nshepperd »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #11

I think this suffers from a causation direction bias. Maybe people with the choice mindset wind up in positions of wealth and power because of this mindset. I can only speak anecdotally, but the hand full of millionaires I know all grew up lower middle class, and they all have choice mindset. I think the worst kinds of people create a false dichotomy here where either everything is choice or everything is a product o…

Yes, that's a pretty obvious confounding possibility. It's foolish to draw any causal conclusions from a correlation between 'wealth' and 'choice mindset' when the causality could clearly go either way.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#384

Post by c22 »

nightski wrote: post #324
c22 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's another way to look at it, we're grossing around $100k a year and only managing to save about $25k of it. I don't understand how a family that makes $60k a year (about 3 full time minimum wage jobs) manages at all. Our lifestyle is not opulent.

That is entirely dependent on where you live. Plenty of people live quite well on 60k (which is the median household income in the U.S.). Obviously not in San Francisco or New York.

This is absolutely true. I live in Seattle and housing is a huge part of this equation. It's worth noting, though, that even here we still see a large need for low-paying jobs (many have in fact been recently deemed essential). I know we would likely not be able to gross as much in another region either.

Is it fair to say that low income earners in New York and San Francisco should move somewhere else to have kids? Will we only have McDonald's in Ohio?

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#385

Post by phobosanomaly »

proc0 wrote: post #382
phobosanomaly wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just responding to your assertion that poverty doesn't really exist in the United States. It's not as widespread as in Latin America, and tends to be more sporadic, but there are hundreds of thousands of people living in tents and improvised shelters with no access to running water or electricity and no hope for the future here. The United States is no more a homogeneous bloc of wealth and prosperity than Latin…

It wasn't my intention to be lecturing, sorry. My point was around the perception of what poor is, given the article. Rich people can't understand poor people in the US, and I'm pointing out this happens on every level at the global scale. It's easy to lose perspective and think that because you're in a tent in SF or Seattle, that means you know the extent of what it means to be poor, when in fact they have some reso…

It's all good food for thought.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#386

Post by phobosanomaly »

refurb wrote: post #380
phobosanomaly wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of First-Nations people in the United States without access to clean drinking water. In your time in the US, did you get a chance to visit the Navajo reservation? "Tribes without clean water demand an end to decades of US government neglect US has broken promises as Indigenous Americans lack access to safe water, a crisis worsened by Covid-19" "An estimated one in 10 Indigenous Americans lack access…

Claim was “the US is the worst of developed countries”. Clearly not.

I guess it depends on what you're comparing.

I mean, compare the US Gini coefficient with other developed countries.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#387

Post by refurb »

phobosanomaly wrote: post #386
refurb wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Claim was “the US is the worst of developed countries”. Clearly not.

I guess it depends on what you're comparing. I mean, compare the US Gini coefficient with other developed countries.

Gini is a relative, not absolute measure.

You could have a higher Gini coefficient but your poor are better off.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#388

Post by ixacto »

mcguire wrote: post #230
ixacto wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a relative statement. I never wanted kids they are annoying and I’d probably end up a terrible parent and get divorced and then be paying child support. In fact this would have been what happened if I stayed with my last gf. Much better to be able to FIRE by 35 instead haha.

And it's wonderful that you can make that choice. Now imagine you couldn't. Imagine someone wanted children but was forced not to? How would that be different than forcing you to have (and pay for) children?

The government already forces me to pay for other people's children though our child welfare system that I mostly support. WIC/CHIP/Preschool yield enormous economic benefits.

Having Aircraft carriers and military bases all over the world doesn't. Raising the personal income tax exemption to 100k would.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#389

Post by phobosanomaly »

refurb wrote: post #387
phobosanomaly wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it depends on what you're comparing. I mean, compare the US Gini coefficient with other developed countries.

Gini is a relative, not absolute measure. You could have a higher Gini coefficient but your poor are better off.

Ok, so what is your counter-metric (or reasoning) for why the United States is a better place to be poor in than other developed countries?

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#390

Post by mlac »

voidfunc wrote: post #378
mlac wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Volunteer & serve on the board of a non-profit that focuses on meeting a community need. Did you know that diapers are not covered in the United States by government assistance? So the current setup is that we have a lot of diaper banks across the United States that provide diapers to those in need. Diapers are sold as single items in corner stores in low income areas at extreme markups, and sometimes parents can onl…

Im sad this a real problem (and its a good example of a problem I would never have thought existed). Ill take a look at the links, thank you.

Yeah I didn’t realize it existed either and that’s why I’m spending my time on the organization. I think most people just assume that people can use government benefits to buy diapers.

Here is another way to look at it: Take your salary (or income from investments) divided by the poverty line to get a multiplying factor. The poverty line for a one person household is $12,880 [1]. For simplicity, let’s say you make $128,880 a year. That’s 10x the poverty line and a 10x multiplier. The simple approach is to just multiply everything by that multiplying factor - in our example, filling up a gas tank would be $500 instead of $50. I know that would make me consider getting half a tank instead of just filling up…

For a more complex thing - take an expense category for the month, like food. Multiply every dollar you spend on food for the month by 10 (the factor above). So say you spend $500 a month on food - set aside an additional $4500. $100 on alcohol, set aside $900. You will quickly see how fast money goes.

I recently had a child, so I am going to do this with diapers one month and donate the difference to the diaper bank. You could do the same with a cause you care about.

The thing that surprised me about the non-profit scene is how cut throat it is. There is a lack of funding, people compete on grants, and everyone is extremely passionate about their cause. So some people view it as a zero sum game and have the attitude of “I don’t care if a few babies have a wet diaper, my non-profit fixing cause X has a bigger impact” and they will use their altruistic end to justify some pretty crappy behavior. I’m of the mindset that we need to work together, and fortunately most others in the space are too. But a dollar is a dollar, and there are people that are very passionate with strong beliefs about how the next dollar given to the non-profit space should be spent to optimize the societal benefit.

[1] https://aspe.hhs.gov/2021-poverty-guidelines

* one can argue there are a lot of government benefits available to those near the poverty line, but the point of the exercise is to get in the same ballpark. Plus accessing those services isn’t easy - Millions of people spend hundreds to hire an accountant to interface with the IRS once a year so that they can pay the government. Getting things from the government is more difficult...

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