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Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

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Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#141

A more distant but very wealthy family member once said that people wouldn't be so poor if they just saved up money. That perfectly illustrated the difficulty rich people have understanding poor people to me. I was really young, but that really stuck with me.

I remember a politician complaining about having difficulties with a salary of 6000€/mo. Some people live in a bubble so far from the real world that almost seems fantasy.

The hedonic treadmill, also known as hedonic adaptation, is the observed tendency of humans to quickly return to a relatively stable level of happiness despite major positive or negative events or life changes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#142
It's kind of the "American dream" that if you're responsible and work hard, then anybody can achieve a reasonable level of success. There's an appeal to believing being wealthy is a choice, then you can believe the people at the "top tiers" of society earned their positions and deserve all that power and influence.

If that's not true, then it implies that live in a class-based system. Wealthy people are the ones making the decisions at the national level, they own the media by just about any objective measurement, and even though the billionaires "earned" their billions, they were still born into wealthy, well-connected families who have direct control over the systems in which they "earned" their billions.

99.9% of the population has no chance of every achieving the level of success that a small portion of the population was born into. We live in an aristocracy, and yet both the wealthy and the poor are in denial. You can believe the system is moral though the "choice mindset", then it's not a class-based society. Then there's still freedom, equality, a representative government and a healthy American dream. Especially with the conservatives, it's blasphemous and "un-American" to suggest otherwise, to say that we're ruled by aristocrats who were born into their positions and don't represent us.

It odd, because I feel like I'm the one who's being the most American, the most patriotic, and yet I hate to brag about it because I think Nationalism is a kind of poison. I believe in American ideals though, let me remind you of them. You're entitled to a respect, dignity and success regardless of your social status, race, sex, the nationality you were born into, and your profession, chosen and otherwise. You're entitled to a government that represents you, and if it doesn't then it damn well better. It's up to "the people" to enforce a representative government (the opposite of an aristocracy) by any means necessary, including violent overthrow*. These are American ideals, ideals the country was founded upon. These are the beautiful American dreams, and we Americans call them dreams because we're still working towards them. They hide some truly ugly nightmares of things like slavery and how we got the land we live upon.

*Disclaimer: I seemingly called for violence, but violence is an evil thing and a last resort, something I don't encourage. When "the people" truly reject their government, even the police and military are on the side of "the people" because they're people too. Easy way to distinguish terrorism for a truly populist movement.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#143
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes even that out a bit. The person with an 800k house pays twice as much in property taxes. In many states, the amount that the state can raise taxes on someone whose house may have "increased" in value is limited.

They don't because houses don't produce income (unless you rent them). So if you had your house when you could afford it but cannot anymore you get made even less wealthy with the property taxes. Taxes should be proportional to income. There should be a more fair way to do that: to not tax main house when in use, tax only at the time of sale on benefit only (corrected by inflation).

Only if renters are allowed to pay rent out of pre-tax income.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#144
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People made vastly more money just sitting around in their houses in the past couple years than I made in my job as an "essential" worker over the past decade. This is not an accident. It’s a result of deliberate policy choices. The incumbent homeowners voted themselves massive returns. And they felt self righteous while they were doing it to boot.

What are you talking about?

Presumably restrictive zoning policies that make it incredibly difficult to build the amount of additional housing that is needed in many areas.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#145
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay...but on /r/personalfinance, people show up all the time with a litany of complaints and a litany of awful, awful budget mistakes they have no interest in fixing. 120/month cellphone, 400/month doordash, Dodge Charger with a 600/month note. And so on. each case was a frustrating puzzle What puzzled you? The necessities should never be a puzzle. If the rent, the food, the utilities, the insurance, and the day car…

My cell phone bill (for my family of 4) would be around $120/month, but it's discounted down to around $80 because of my employer. There's no note on our car cause we could afford to just buy it with cash. We never spend money on doordash because we have plenty of time to go shopping and make our own meals. For the most part we have rent (mortgage), food, utilities, insurance, and day care (have you looked into the c…

Here's another way to look at it, we're grossing around $100k a year and only managing to save about $25k of it. I don't understand how a family that makes $60k a year (about 3 full time minimum wage jobs) manages at all. Our lifestyle is not opulent.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#146
post #131

There are a couple things to understand about being poor. It's not about lack of money (though obviously having lots of money means you're not poor). It's about insecurity. I grew up in farm country in the 1980s. Nobody had money, but I didn't feel poor. When I moved to other parts of the country, that's when I encountered poor people. They had to worry about crime, schools for their kids, and being homeless. When yo…

> The other thing is that there's a saying along the lines of getting wealthy being mostly the same for everyone What does this mean?

My understanding is that it's a reference to being easy to give advice on building wealth since it's all the same story about saving and getting a return on your savings. This is in contrast to being poor, which can involve lots of things, like bad decisions, bad luck, bad birth...

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#147
Another common misunderstanding that I found quite irritating lately is the fallacious idea that wealth has a natural tendency to "trickle-down".

By all means, the opposite is true, and I bet this can be theoretically proven.

Wealth (and power) naturally trickles up. (not down!)

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#148
post #44

I think that this is true. This is also true that you can't understand what it is of being powerful or rich when you're not. In a general way, it is very difficult to imagine living in other people's shoes, we live on the same planet, breathing the same air, we have 99.9% the same DNA, but our experience of life and our environment can be widely different.

I agree what you say, although I might add that the harm potential by a "not-understanding rich of the poor" is much greater than a "not-understanding poor of the rich"

> the harm potential by a "not-understanding rich of the poor" is much greater than a "not-understanding poor of the rich"

This seems superficially true, conjuring up a group of callous rich people using their power to make decisions that disproportionally harm poorer people. Obviously this does actually happen.

However, it’s equally true that not understand the nature of wealth causes the poor to make less than optimal decisions, both on a micro scale, and a macro scale.

I don’t mean there is some simple path out of being poor by making better decisions, but I do mean that not understanding wealth means that poor people often can’t tell the difference between a good opportunity and a bad one or how much work it takes to find one.

It also means that poor people end up supporting political ideas that don’t make lasting a difference.

I say this as someone who grew up poor, is no longer poor, and can see now that I have had access to more people with money how much better I’d have done if I had known more about how wealth works earlier in life.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#149

The financial planning bit is meant to come before one has a list of expenses to "figure out" (like home+leased car+children).

"Just don't have kids" is, IMO, one of the most incredibly insensitive approaches to this problem. It reminds me of all the people telling gay people to "just don't have a relationship". Having an entire class of people who work hard but are too poor to raise children is a failure of society - not a failure of financial planning.

No. Not raising kids in poverty is a matter of social responsibility. I would also argue that most people don’t want kids until they have a certain level of financial security.. That’s why family planning was so successful in decreasing birth rates.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#150

I have both my father and my uncle who became dirt poor just by making terribly poor life choices so I've got a very different take on this. They had good jobs but couldn't help screwing it up by: gambling, buying sportcars, overall trying to bite more than they could swallow (houses too big, with monthly mortgage too expensive), etc. In both cases it ended up with foreclosures / lawyers etc. My brother and I are now…

Totally agree with all of this. If you actually have the opportunity to make good money and you still wreck your finances through excessive spending, well, that is on you (barring something like a legit mental illness). Big difference between that and starting off with few skills or opportunities.
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