Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor • Hacker News Board

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#291

Post by Consultant32452 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

jheriko wrote: post #46

Consultant32452 wrote: post #11

I think this suffers from a causation direction bias. Maybe people with the choice mindset wind up in positions of wealth and power because of this mindset. I can only speak anecdotally, but the hand full of millionaires I know all grew up lower middle class, and they all have choice mindset. I think the worst kinds of people create a false dichotomy here where either everything is choice or everything is a product o…

there is going to be some of that for sure. i expect people reading this comment will not understand your point to mean "some" and will probably read it as "all". despite the length of your comment to the contrary, they won't parse and extract the meaning but, probably without even noticing it, rely on biases and shortcuts to interpret the meaning more rapidly (and wrongly). i'm pretty confident you are not suggestin…

The Marxist mindset has been drilled into them since kindergarten. They can only see the world in terms of class and identity. That’s why you see them propagating the false dichotomy in responses. They trivialize choice as having only nominal impact on outcomes. There’s no point in encouraging self determination, only focus on the externalities, no one can ever be responsible for their outcomes in any more than a trivial sense.

The reality is that choice and context are symbiotic in outcomes and while it’s obviously true that not all options are available to everyone, individual choice has massive influence on individual and group outcomes.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#292

Post by throwaway210222 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

ratsmack wrote: post #190

baq wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The free market caused this situation in the first place.

We had a free market in the past, but I would say that today it is a rigged market.

> We had a free market in the past…

This is so sweet. Only Mogadishu has a truly free market. Not many takers.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#293

Post by ffggvv » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

Miner49er wrote: post #200

ffggvv wrote: post #153

a lot of immigrants have both the experience of starting their life poor in their home country. starting poor in america and then ending their life rich. so we do understand what it’s like to be poor. and in a way i think sometimes we have less sympathy because we can see how good decisions can lead to wealth. there’s countless stories of jewish or asian immigrants in new york working insane hours for little pay as t…

Is that actually common? Is it just anecdotal evidence or is there actually some data on this showing that it is common?

yes look at income statistics and career demographics, college admissions etc…

asian women have a higher average income than white men who are supposedly the pinnacle of privilege

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#294

Post by mechagodzilla » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

kingsuper20 wrote: post #253

mechagodzilla wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of 'deliberate' policy decisions which both depress low-skilled workers' wages, and lead to higher property prices. On the wage side, good examples are that: 1) the minimum wage doesn't get increased with inflation 2) many jobs require a higher degree (which takes capital to pay for), or effectively require working for free via internships (which requires capital or someone else subsidizing you) 3) ma…

> 1) the minimum wage doesn't get increased with inflation Sure it does. It's pretty much unchanged since 1980 (in a sawtooth, they build up some pressure due to inflation and then it jumps up due to legislation). 1960-1980 looks to average around 20% higher. It's funny how these charts differ. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/04/5-facts-abo... https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/103807392-min-wage-inf…

The important thing here is that it’s not indexed to inflation, it’s occasionally increased by legislation, so for most of the ~decade between bills, wages are decreasing in purchasing power for those people. I think you can make a much stronger case that it should track productivity than that it should track GDP, as the latter increases just by virtue of a growing population.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#295

Post by throwaway3699 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #285

School-Cotton wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, the European definition seems to be “social democracy” at most. Marx would have thought the name of today’s French “Socialist” Party was ridiculous.

This has changed hugely in Europe over the last generation. Certainly here in the UK there is zero appetite for nationalised industry and strong centralised industrial policy. The last labour government under Blair and Brown avoided such talk as utter poison, and Corbyn, the last Labour leader to openly talk about such things may well have killed the Labour party stone dead. They've now got a very centrist leader, bu…

Eh, the conservatives just took steps towards nationalising the railways and it was hugely popular among regular, working class people.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#296

Post by notacoward » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

Jiro wrote: post #270

notacoward wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anything you actually said is actually wrong, but it's adjacent to what many rich people do say - that the poor shouldn't have or do anything that just makes them happier until they're not poor. No treats, no recreation, just work at the best-paying job available as many hours as possible and save every penny. And I do have a problem with that. It's a deeply punitive and judgmental attitude, as though b…

This sounds like sour grapes to me. If side effects like being exposed to true diversity, being empathetic, etc. are so good for you that they're better than escaping poverty, that means that poverty is something to be applauded. Nobody believes that. Poverty is bad. If you have a chance to escape poverty, and it doesn't have serious, straightforward , downsides like working 12 hours a day, or leaving your family, or…

> that means that poverty is something to be applauded

If you get to accuse me of sour grapes, I get to point out a strawman. Not only does nobody believe that, but nobody claimed or even implied it either. Bear in mind that there are many levels of poverty, and even at the same level many experiences. I think it's possible that it worked out for me and my brother, but that's neither certain nor generalizable. We were poor but not destitute, and we were poor for reasons that included our mother's commitment to being present for our childhoods. Not everyone has that.

Also, being rich doesn't mean being happy or sane either. In my experience the relationship between later-life happiness and early-life circumstance is barely above statistical noise among those who are rich as adults. But that's not the same as recommending that people be poor, because so many (too many) people remain poor and are thus not part of the sample. I think overlooking that is either bad faith or proving the article's (and my) point. Sometimes poor people have priorities other than becoming un-poor as soon as humanly possible, and those priorities remain valid even if rich sophists don't understand or approve.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#297

Post by baq » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #289

baq wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve got some reading up to do on behavioral economics. Humans (real ones, not model economic actors) can’t and don’t make optimal decisions except in very special circumstances.

That doesn't answer my question at all.

Of course. Never meant to, just pointed to a direction that you seem to be unaware of.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#298

Post by School-Cotton » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #261

School-Cotton wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, the European definition seems to be “social democracy” at most. Marx would have thought the name of today’s French “Socialist” Party was ridiculous.

Yes socialism and communism are two very different things in European politics. In fact in many countries socialist parties pre date communist parties.

Yes, but, at least in the example of the French socialist party, they have become much less radically leftist and more generically “left-leaning” — and further from the Communists — over time .

Compare their mission statements from 1905 and 2008:

1905: Le Parti socialiste est un parti de classe qui a pour but de socialiser les moyens de production et d'échange, c'est-à-dire de transformer la société capitaliste en une société collectiviste ou communiste, et pour moyen l'organisation économique et politique du prolétariat. Par son but, par son idéal, par les moyens qu'il emploie, le parti socialiste, tout en poursuivant la réalisation des réformes immédiates revendiquées par la classe ouvrière, n'est pas un parti de réforme, mais un parti de lutte des classes et de révolution.

2008: Être socialiste, c'est ne pas se satisfaire du monde tel qu'il est, c'est vouloir changer la société. L'idée socialiste relève, à la fois, d'une révolte contre les injustices et du combat pour une vie meilleure. Le but de l'action socialiste est l'émancipation complète de la personne humaine.

Translation:

1905: The Socialist Party is a class party whose goal is to socialize the means of production and trade; that is, to transform capitalist society into a collectivist or communist society, and whose means is the economic and political organization of the proletariat. By its goal, by its ideal, by the means it uses, the Socialist Party, while it seeks the realization of the immediate reforms demanded by the working class, is not a reform party, but a party of class struggle and revolution.

2008: To be Socialist is to be dissatisfied with the present state of the world, to want to change society. The Socialist idea simultaneously addresses a revolt against injustice, and a fight for a better life. The goal of Socialist action is the total emancipation of the human person.

Source: https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parti_socialiste_(France)

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#299

Post by simonh » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

throwaway3699 wrote: post #295

simonh wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has changed hugely in Europe over the last generation. Certainly here in the UK there is zero appetite for nationalised industry and strong centralised industrial policy. The last labour government under Blair and Brown avoided such talk as utter poison, and Corbyn, the last Labour leader to openly talk about such things may well have killed the Labour party stone dead. They've now got a very centrist leader, bu…

Eh, the conservatives just took steps towards nationalising the railways and it was hugely popular among regular, working class people.

The privatisation of the railways was always a complete and utter fudge. Not that the nationalised system was any better, but privatisation hasn't been exactly a resounding success for market forces either.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#300

Post by defterGoose » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

chasebank wrote: post #120

hn8788 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be that as it may, he wouldn't get sick when he didn't think he was eating fast food. We'd go to a diner for breakfast sometimes, and since he perceived it as a nice family-run place, he wouldn't get sick, even though their food was still processed garbage that showed up frozen in a truck every morning.

There's a stark difference between frozen food off of the Sysco truck and McDonalds.

Right. The McDonald's food is generally higher quality.