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Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

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Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#281
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> The only wrong thing you've said here is "I'm not a leftie". > Why do you reject that generally accurate label? Because most of what he wrote aligns with libertarianism, which is generally not considered left.

I thought libertarianism evolved from anarchism?

Edit: seeing as this is being downvoted I’ll add this from Wikipedia: “Libertarianism originated as a form of left-wing politics such as anti-authoritarian and anti-state socialists like anarchists,[6] especially social anarchists,[7] but more generally libertarian communists/Marxists and libertarian socialists.“

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#282
The actual studied results are straightforward and intuitive: whether you are rich or poor, humans are excellent at rationalizing their own merit. So for a rich person of course they want to believe that their wealth comes from their own agency, and for a poor person of course they want to believe that wealth is completely random.

That's all fine and good, but attaching the editorial that the rich don't understand the poor kind of bothers me. Sure it's true in aggregate, and I agree with the implication that more privileged groups could stand to have more empathy for less privileged groups, but going a layer deeper I think it does individuals a real disservice to tie "choice mindset" to a moral failing.

The reason it bothers me is because taking responsibility of your own choices is just a better way to live; whether or not it makes you rich it will certainly improve your relationships and mental health. And of course I understand some folks have more choice than others, but in practice I've seen plenty of rich people exhibiting victim mentality just as I've seen many poor people make hard choices and own them.

In fact I'd be curious to see a longitudinal study that tested the hypotheses that poor people with a "choice mindset" are more upwardly mobile, and rich people with a "privilege mindset" are more downwardly mobile.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#283
2 things on this:

1. Terrance Malik did a pretty good job of capturing the boolean of this article in knight of cups. the rich, despite this study, still have the same existential crises as us plebs. also, there's something inherent about trying to find purpose in life that even escapes the niceties of privilege.

2. those 'niceties' are currently being accounted for through policies made over 25 years ago [0]. they have been, essentially, mistaken as our prime purpose for life. when in reality, it's more that they are a sort of short cut for being 'allowed' to pursue what you perceive as your purpose [one day, collectively, we will realize that we can only provide this to x number of people for y quality of access to that pursuit]. essentially what i'm saying is that the policies were created to allow the entire system to inflate and eventually crash, while letting the rich create a nice puffy cushion for themselves to land on when it does crash. rather than say, the same thing happening but without the cushion.

this is rather just typical human behaviour at scale. ray dalio has been talking about it. we're reaching the end of a 300 year cycle. no one alive has experienced it before, but it happens regularly in human history. i think it is a natural phenomenon. inheritance is more to blame than any other element. we die and our bodies go to the same place, but our capital does not. we do know that capital allows us more opportunity to pursue more 'life', and i imagine that even people who only get that chance through inheritance sometimes believe they worked for it/deserve it whatever... but we shouldn't mistake the idea that wealth is the end game. it is, in many senses, just the beginning. but it is not the only. an example of this would be having kids. or finding love etc. wealth is just tylenol. temporary alleviation of symptoms. sometimes it allows us to do more art, or have more kids, or find more lovers, but its no guarantee. what we're all seeking is a common understanding that money is a tool; for each of us to pursue life as we see it. not the perverted way we've used it [and we live in a democracy so must take responsibility for its misuse]. the attitude in this article, to me, is less about wealth, and more about ego. it's egotistical people who can't understand the poor. and we get seduced by their confidence. ayn rand is a good example of this. the preacher who ended up on welfare.

when the bandaid comes off, just remember that it's not your fault, it's not society's fault, but it's our fault. fix the bugs, account for fault tolerance, and act accordingly. all that said, burning down the buildings, destroying the statues, raiding the halls of congress, is not the answer. but tampering the egos just may be. i think the only way we can do that is to not allow power or wealth to concentrate. that's the lesson to be learned. to an extent we must let it, but that's the thing. finding that sweet spot. understanding that is how the rich can understand the poor, how we can understand each other, and how we will eventually understand the greatness of that sweet spot.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKe38mVpHgk

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, the European definition seems to be “social democracy” at most. Marx would have thought the name of today’s French “Socialist” Party was ridiculous.

Yes socialism and communism are two very different things in European politics. In fact in many countries socialist parties pre date communist parties.

I don't think you even have to go as far as Europe. In Canada, at least until recently, Social/Socialism isn't as bad word as in USA I think.

NDP is an openly "Social Democratic" party and while they are pretty much always third nationally, they do occasionally lead individual provinces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_Canada

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to understand that the American definition for socialism completely different than Europeans. Those words evoke memories of communism and Cold War rhetoric.

On the other hand, the European definition seems to be “social democracy” at most. Marx would have thought the name of today’s French “Socialist” Party was ridiculous.

This has changed hugely in Europe over the last generation. Certainly here in the UK there is zero appetite for nationalised industry and strong centralised industrial policy. The last labour government under Blair and Brown avoided such talk as utter poison, and Corbyn, the last Labour leader to openly talk about such things may well have killed the Labour party stone dead. They've now got a very centrist leader, but the harm is beginning to look incurable.

Socialism today in Europe mostly means Scandinavian style strong social policy combined with a very large private industrial sector. Even the Conservative party here in the UK is fully on board with this approach, it's just a matter of proportions. Conservative leaders ever since Maggie have bent over backwards to show support for the National Health Service for example. Now ok, whether that's at all genuine or not is a separate question, but the political reality is that switching to a system of private health care is inconceivable here even for the political right. It would be just as suicidal as talking about nationalisation was for the left.

So the voting public have resoundingly rejected both hard left socialism and radical right market reform, in certain sectors. It's not a matter of ideological purity or even consistency, just a matter of which model has worked out for which type of industry or service.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#286
post #19

I grew up poor. We were on food stamps. Most of my adult life I have been making an upper-middle class salary. I have forgotten what it is like to be poor other than some unpleasant memories.

I remember anxiet of all situations were unexpected costs might come up. Car driving- better not get stopped by a cop.Car better not fail. Car better not run out of gas before end of week. Turning all things around, going bulk cheap over "I-want-this".

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#287

There are a couple things to understand about being poor. It's not about lack of money (though obviously having lots of money means you're not poor). It's about insecurity. I grew up in farm country in the 1980s. Nobody had money, but I didn't feel poor. When I moved to other parts of the country, that's when I encountered poor people. They had to worry about crime, schools for their kids, and being homeless. When yo…

Seems like the solution to this problem is to figure out ways to have stronger networks of friends and family.

It’s like trying to build a robot to love me when the simplest thing is just to form relationships.

Stronger community bonds seem like the only long term solution to the problem of being taken care of when a hit and run driver knocks me out for a bit.

Of course short term disability insurance is effective for this specific instance, but loving parents, sibs, kids, cousins, etc is probably more robust.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there's one thing about unsophisticated people and investments, they always cash out when it's too late. There is no such thing as "too late" in urban housing. Rural areas are so far "left behind" that it will take about ten times the investment that Biden wants to put up to bring it to civilized level, and he's already getting massive resistance... no way that the rural flight trend will be reversed.

> no such thing as too late Go ahead and buy some homes for investment! Go buy some Dogecoin! Some GME! What a low information take, to say something about rural homes and Biden or whatever. In the service of curiosity: maybe if you sold your $185,000 home from 1986 for $1.5m today, you’ll walk away a millionaire. A lot of people are looking at that arithmetic in San Francisco. And yet they do not sell! The index for…

Chiming in as someone who has a few million in liquidity and a few more in real estate: some people buy a house to...you know, actually live in it and stuff.

If you sell your primary home out of greed, assuming you otherwise like living there, you are attempting to time the market.

That never ends well.

Another thing that never works is trying to talk sense on the internet.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#289
post #163
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you looked at the psychology of decision making when poor and struggling? It might open your eyes as to why people don't make the optimal choices (financially or others). Where does "psychology of decision making when poor and struggling" stop and personal responsibility begin? Can every suboptimal decision be excused because of "psychology of decision making when poor and struggling"?

You’ve got some reading up to do on behavioral economics. Humans (real ones, not model economic actors) can’t and don’t make optimal decisions except in very special circumstances.

That doesn't answer my question at all.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But maybe it ended because Australia couldn't just keep paying forever, thus again proving that poverty isn't just solved. The entire reason why Australia was able to do it in the first place was because it was understood it would be a temporary measure caused by an emergency.

Yes, society has chosen not to deal with poverty like an emergency. It chose. And Australia can afford it. Money is just a construct! but seriously it is and feeding people is cheaper than building useless submarines for the navy and we're not stopping that. And just on your point, the government has discretion over it's own spending, it didn't need to vote to give people money like in the states. The Australian gove…

Money is just a construct, but you cannot feed people with money and cannot shelter them in money. If money is just a construct and you have a money printer who will sell you food and build houses for your Monopoly money?
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