Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire • Hacker News Board

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#351

Post by zepto » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #211

zepto wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android doesn’t allow first class alternative stores, and is also not the market leader. It’s obviously not an example for this, otherwise Epic would have just made an Android store and moved on.

> Android doesn’t allow first class alternative stores Don't change the goal posts. Apple doesn't provide anything . Having to pass through a dialogue after download t confirm install isn't ideal, but possible is better than not. > and is also not the market leader. Android is at 45% and apple is at 55%.[1] Is your contention that a least of that amount is sufficient such that it actually changes this in some way? If…

> Don't change the goal posts. Apple doesn't provide anything. Having to pass through a dialogue after download t confirm install isn't ideal, but possible is better than not.

It’s not just a dialog box. Alternate stores can’t provide automatic updates, which is a critical feature.

You are the one changing the goalposts here. Android alternative stores are not representative of what would happen because they are not the same, either technically, or in terms of market value.

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#352

Post by skohan » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

tshaddox wrote: post #156

skohan wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The new iPads literally have the same SOC as what are some of, if not the best consumer laptops on the planet currently. But what can you do with them? Not a heck of a lot, thanks to the walled garden that is iPad OS. If you ask me, that's a crying shame. I don't see how it hurts anyone to allow side-loading of apps on iOS devices. Even if you make it as hard as having a toggle behind a scary warning 2 layers deep in…

> If you ask me, that's a crying shame. If they ask you, buy the MacBook Air instead of the iPad Pro!

The point is that a developer could have a lot of fun experimenting with the tablet form factor and inputs, with the full power of a desktop system (including hardware x86 emulation which is currently unusable!) but we can't because Apple says we can only use the hardware we bought in the way which they intend it.

Imagine how you would react with any other product you paid for, and brought into your home, if the company which produced it had the right to dictate how you could and could not use it.

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

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Post by skohan » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:14 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #337

skohan wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does it defeat your security if other people want to look at network traffic on the device they purchased?

Because I don't want apps to be actually sniffing traffic whilst pretending to be something else.

You could solve this with OS-level permissions for this kind of thing, the same way Apple now handles cross-app tracking

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

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Post by skohan » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:17 PM UTC

chongli wrote: post #305

lupinglade wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sniffing network traffic would not defeat anything, provided you are prompted about the necessary permissions.

The problem with those permission prompts is that many users blindly accept them. If a “sniff all network traffic” permission were allowed, it would take all of one day before Facebook et al release an update with it and start siphoning millions of users network traffic. Apple does not want this.

Apple would probably also prefer it if I had to use an in-app purchase to pay my rent, but luckily we live in a nation of laws, and Apple doesn't get to decide everything based on unilateral self-interest.

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#355

Post by tompazourek » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

ginko wrote: post #111

fooey wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically every other comparable store charges the exact same 30% rate Google, Steam, Xbox, PlayStation, Nintendo The ones that don't just prove that charging a lower rate doesn't actually change the price the consumer pays in any way.

They should be forced to open up as well. The whole software platform business model needs to die.

Just because you don't like it, it should be forced to die? You know there are people happy with the way it is...

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

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Post by nodamage » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

trboyden wrote: post #344

nodamage wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also open an iPhone, load any website in Safari, and order whatever you want from the website. Apple can't stop you from doing that either.

Except, as we have seen with Epic, and why we are talking about this case, is they can, by dropping your app from the App Store in retribution for offering an alternative. They can do that because there is no other app store on Apple and effectively prevents you from competing.

No, you are allowed to offer an alternative on your website. Netflix and plenty of other apps do this just fine.

If you want to advertise the alternative inside your app, well, that's a bit like Target putting a sign inside that mom-and-pop store saying you can get a better deal at Target.

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#357

Post by agentdrtran » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:20 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #215

skohan wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The new iPads literally have the same SOC as what are some of, if not the best consumer laptops on the planet currently. But what can you do with them? Not a heck of a lot, thanks to the walled garden that is iPad OS. If you ask me, that's a crying shame. I don't see how it hurts anyone to allow side-loading of apps on iOS devices. Even if you make it as hard as having a toggle behind a scary warning 2 layers deep in…

Where is the evidence that allowing sideloaded apps will result in an explosion of desktop class apps ? Hasn’t been the case with Android. And I would say the touch centric form factor is far more an issue.

iPads also outsell and outperform Android tablets by several orders of magnitude

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

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Post by tompazourek » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:28 PM UTC

anoncake wrote: post #145

esclerofilo wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice, the difference is that consoles tend to be sold at loss, they wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the 30% cut. And in my experience, another big difference was that when I had consoles, I could easily borrow my friend's games, or buy cheaper games used. I don't know how it works with digital goods on modern consoles, but Steam actually has a feature to lend your library to a friend, so there's precedent.

If customers don't buy consoles unless sold at a loss, they value them less than making them costs. Which means they shouldn't be made.

You forget that there's a competitive market that affects the pricing of consoles. If a customer values a console for $1000 and therer are two consoles on the market that are almost identical, one costs $600, and the other one $900, the customer is still going to get the $600 one.

The cost is related to the value it brings, but it's also heavily affected by competition.

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#359

Post by ENGNR » Sat, May 22, 2021, 6:16 PM UTC

nucleardog wrote: post #140

benrbray wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is opening it up so users have a choice. Third party stores will emerge, and it is up to the consumer, not Apple, to decide whether the extra features are worth the new apps being a little rough around the edges like they are on Android. If it's as bad as you say, the new stores will not be successful anyway.

> The point is opening it up so users have a choice. Users have a choice: Don't use iOS. Their actions have pretty overwhelmingly spoken and they don't care. The only people that care are techies. And most obviously not that much because most meetings I show up to are still full of iPhones.

I switched from Android to iPhone because the hardware is excellent and lasts forever. They won the hardware battle

Should they then be able to leverage that position to instantly win and extort the marketplace built on the next layer up? It pretty much goes to the heart of antitrust

5-10%... sure maybe, 30% of saas fees... ridiculous

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#360

Post by ksec » Sat, May 22, 2021, 6:54 PM UTC

ENGNR wrote: post #359

nucleardog wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point is opening it up so users have a choice. Users have a choice: Don't use iOS. Their actions have pretty overwhelmingly spoken and they don't care. The only people that care are techies. And most obviously not that much because most meetings I show up to are still full of iPhones.

I switched from Android to iPhone because the hardware is excellent and lasts forever. They won the hardware battle Should they then be able to leverage that position to instantly win and extort the marketplace built on the next layer up? It pretty much goes to the heart of antitrust 5-10%... sure maybe, 30% of saas fees... ridiculous

>Should they then be able to leverage that position to instantly win and extort the marketplace built on the next layer up? It pretty much goes to the heart of antitrust

Exactly. And yet this idea seems so hard to grasp for many, just look at the discussions around the web and on HN. Everyone over simplifies it to it is Apple's phone or Apple's App Store they do what ever they want. Or the user chose iPhone if you dont like it go and get an Android.

The judge actually pointed out ( Finally ! ) vast majority of revenue are coming from Games. Which means Gaming is in a way subsidising all other Apps in App Store.

I wish Apple separate the Game into Game Store and keep those 30%. While Apps and Services are 10%, with little curation of Apps with App Store. i.e You no longer block Apps for their political view or speeches. As long as they are legal you should allow them in within the quality guidelines and security clearance. Apple could still down rank all these lower quality apps should they choose to. They dont have to block it from accessing iPhone.