Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing • Hacker News Board

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#751

Post by dunkelheit » Sat, May 22, 2021, 10:48 AM UTC

eric4smith wrote: post #7

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

I think the problem lies not with mixing politics and work (which can obviously be political) but in pressuring companies to engage in activism on unrelated issues.

The problem starts with the slogan "everything is political" which utterly fails to recognize the varying degree with which any activity relates to some political cause. Take Coinbase - their long-term project is to advance the use of cryptocurrencies which is deeply political. And you are welcome to work there if you support this project or engage in activism against it if you don't. This much makes sense. But why do Coinbase management has to issue a statement supporting BLM? What do they even have to do with police brutality? Of course there is a line of argument that they are (just as everybody) complicit in systemic racism so it is their responsibility but it never made much sense to me. Making everybody responsible for everything is not going to work.

In a sense this slogan is similar to "everything is connected", which is in some sense true, but if one takes it too seriously there is a risk of failing to recognize very real differences between things and boundaries between different subsystems which will lead to paralysis or suboptimal actions.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#752

Post by koonsolo » Sat, May 22, 2021, 10:49 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #374

eric4smith wrote: post #7

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

> The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. I disagree. The notion that humans turn into employer-owned production machinery for 8 hours a day is one very particular way to conceptualize work. But it ignores both the individual as a whole person and the society that contains and enables the workplace to function. To me, even as a former and perhaps future entrepr…

Do you know the expression 'no politics or religion'? That is because you can't create a nice and fun environment where people start clashing over these topics.

You can discuss personal things, make jokes with your colleagues, etc. I think that is a very healthy environment.

An environment where people have strong opinions on politics an religion is never a nice environment. Never.

So I think it's fair that in a work environment, we decide "hey, we don't what that shit here".

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#753

Post by SamoyedFurFluff » Sat, May 22, 2021, 10:50 AM UTC

caspper69 wrote: post #733

tshaddox wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I think for a long time 'a whole person' referred to your character, your hobbies, your family, your quirks. And politics was a small, and usually private part of that. Is it possible that you’re referring to a time when large classes of people had little to no voice in politics or representation in government?

No, he's referring to a time when people weren't antagonistic and tribal at work, just like he said. From the tone of your comment, you seem incredulous that such a time actually existed. It did.

There have always been people who are antagonistic and tribal at work. What’re you talking about? Where do asshole bosses and kiss-ass tropes come from if not precisely this?

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#754

Post by SamoyedFurFluff » Sat, May 22, 2021, 10:52 AM UTC

caspper69 wrote: post #735

catgary wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, once I was watching the Ottoman Lieutenant with my wife and parents - I turned it off because the film seemed to be denying the Armenian genocide.

You must be fun at parties. In my day, we had to constantly pick and choose our battles so we didn't come across as assholes. I guess going the opposite direction and airing every single tiny grievance to any person who will listen eliminates that minor inconvenience; everyone gets offended. But on the plus side you don't get offended anymore, and that's all that matters nowadays anyway.

If the person you’re responding to is Armenian Who lost family members to the genocide I don’t think a movie denying that is a minor inconvenience.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#755

Post by fires10 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 10:52 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #190

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very familiar with anti abortionist activists views due to my family. My mom marched with Operation Rescue during the infamous summer in Wichita that resulted in first a bombing, then eventually a murder done by shooting a doctor in the middle of a church service. There is a deep dishonesty in everything they say. They trot out the abortion is murder phrase constantly, but their behavior reveals that their actua…

Did you just paint an entire political belief based on your own personal experience?

I Don't think his assertions are unique to him. These assertions have been echoed and observed by others. Quantifying it would be rather difficult.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#756

Post by darkerside » Sat, May 22, 2021, 10:54 AM UTC

koonsolo wrote: post #752

wpietri wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. I disagree. The notion that humans turn into employer-owned production machinery for 8 hours a day is one very particular way to conceptualize work. But it ignores both the individual as a whole person and the society that contains and enables the workplace to function. To me, even as a former and perhaps future entrepr…

Do you know the expression 'no politics or religion'? That is because you can't create a nice and fun environment where people start clashing over these topics. You can discuss personal things, make jokes with your colleagues, etc. I think that is a very healthy environment. An environment where people have strong opinions on politics an religion is never a nice environment. Never. So I think it's fair that in a work…

People with strong opinions can still talk about them and get along. See every time interfaith community leaders collaborate on a food drive, charity event, etc.

The key is to remember that not everyone agrees with your strong opinion, or even cares about that, and that shouldn't make them any less important to you as a person.

And yes, these environments exist, I've worked in them.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#757

Post by globular-toast » Sat, May 22, 2021, 10:55 AM UTC

fighterpilot wrote: post #405

madrox wrote: post #144

I'm not sure where we go from here, but not being able to escape anxiety-inducing situations in a workplace is the definition of a toxic work environment. I don't think the answer is a return to 20th century "no politics at work," but at the FAANG I worked at, politics was impossible to avoid. Even the desire to be apolitical is itself criticized at worst and not respected at best. Work doesn't afford the use of the…

"not being able to escape anxiety-inducing situations" This sounds like an emotionally abusive environment unless you happen to agree with the political agenda being pushed. To feel socially pressured to go along or else be ostracized from your work is fairly awful. I'm fortunate that I've worked in a rather politically balanced industry which naturally turns out to be apolitical as a consequence of mere demographics…

That's exactly what it's like. I've not seen it put like this before, but anxiety inducing is just right, and yes, it is abusive.

Take the letter people, for example. They will ridicule people for not understanding the difference between G and Q, for example. Phrases like "if you don't know what X means, you must live under a rock" are common.

Then you have the pronoun people who tell us anyone can choose any set of pronouns they like. They tell it's easy to relearn your native language and remember a set of pronouns for each and every person you interact with, from a basically infinite set of combinations.

I'm reminded of the secret languages children invent. But these are now adults doing it, at work. It's especially difficult for older people to change the language they use and can make them feel thoroughly alienated.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#758

Post by darkerside » Sat, May 22, 2021, 10:58 AM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #347

hypertexthero wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “The proximity of his workplace and his home is convenient, but there is a serious political motivation underlying it, too. When Steidl was a teen-ager, he spent several weeks volunteering at Auschwitz, clearing paths for visitors and sleeping in a former barracks. His father had served in the German Army, and Steidl participated in a program that had been established, he said, to show young Germans “what the paren…

People don't spontaneously decide that conducting murder in a concentration camp is a morally acceptable career path. The Nazis succeeded in the first place because they injected their politics into every aspect of life. Politics-free spaces create additional friction that impedes the rise of radical ideology.

There's more truth to this than people want to admit. I would add a nuance that it wasn't just about injecting politics, but a certain brand, with no room for others. If we have politics with tolerance, it's a completely different outcome.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#759

Post by slibhb » Sat, May 22, 2021, 10:58 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #374

eric4smith wrote: post #7

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

> The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. I disagree. The notion that humans turn into employer-owned production machinery for 8 hours a day is one very particular way to conceptualize work. But it ignores both the individual as a whole person and the society that contains and enables the workplace to function. To me, even as a former and perhaps future entrepr…

> If people want to play-act as robots, I won't deny them their kink. But that's not what interests me about work, and it's not the kind of person I hire.

If you want to see how far some people have lost the plot, consider that this poster is boasting about only hiring people who agree with his politics. You can be damn sure he wouldn't hire a passionate Trump supporter.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#760

Post by SamoyedFurFluff » Sat, May 22, 2021, 10:59 AM UTC

betwixthewires wrote: post #308

duped wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The office exists within society. Some things exist everywhere you go in society. You don't give up ethics and morals because you cross the threshold of your place of business. Ignoring social problems in the workplace because it is a workplace is how we avoid solving those problems as a society. The office is exactly where we should be advocating for things, because it is where we spend the most time and can affect…

I think its less of a "giving up your ethics and morals because you crossed the threshold" thing and more a "leave your coworkers the fuck alone" thing. Do you think it is a coincidence that this nonpolitical workplace thing is catching on right now, and not, say, 30 years ago? Nobody was calling for a nonpolitical workplace when the issues at hand were sexual harassment and equal pay for equal work. If there were so…

> Nobody was calling for a nonpolitical workplace when the issues at hand were sexual harassment and equal pay for equal work.

People were most certainly calling for nonpolitical workplaces when it was about sexual harassment and gender/race discrimination. Which people are still struggling with, by the way!