Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing • Hacker News Board

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#551

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:07 AM UTC

lanstin wrote: post #530

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point of order, in the US, religious belief/creed is a protected class. You can't fire someone for being Jewish, for example. On the other hand, certain beliefs of certain religions would be potentially incompatible with workplace discrimination law, including law that protects other protected classes. So it gets a little murky. One thing you can say is that if you have a religious belief that isn't causing you to bo…

I think the case law is pretty clear that you can have an organization that refuses to hire gay people because of religion or people who don’t follow a certain religion, even for jobs like janitor (as opposed to priest).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group#United_States You're just not going to find a list of protected classes in the United States that doesn't include religion, edge cases notwithstanding.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#552

Post by visarga » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:10 AM UTC

greesil wrote: post #492

Aunche wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't spontaneously decide that conducting murder in a concentration camp is a morally acceptable career path. The Nazis succeeded in the first place because they injected their politics into every aspect of life. Politics-free spaces create additional friction that impedes the rise of radical ideology.

That would be true if there was no difference between seeking equality and justice vs. scapegoating Naziesque goose-stepping grievances. I say this as someone who gets annoyed by politically active coworkers. Not all ideologies are created equally.

> seeking equality and justice

Equality of outcome or opportunity? That matters. I'd support one but not the other. I lived under Communism until 1989 and I know what equal outcome looks like after decades of having its run. There is no incentive to excel and all the incentives to conform because equality comes before merit. After some time the whole society slides into poverty.

What I don't like is to put ideology over humans, meaning to prefer abstractions and reifications over concrete realities and ignore those realities. Fighting for justice on a societal level can often be blind to personal details. It's usually us vs them and personal details don't matter, in that regard it's similar to war, dehumanising their opponents in order to make them legitimate targets.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#553

Post by Aunche » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:11 AM UTC

greesil wrote: post #492

Aunche wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't spontaneously decide that conducting murder in a concentration camp is a morally acceptable career path. The Nazis succeeded in the first place because they injected their politics into every aspect of life. Politics-free spaces create additional friction that impedes the rise of radical ideology.

That would be true if there was no difference between seeking equality and justice vs. scapegoating Naziesque goose-stepping grievances. I say this as someone who gets annoyed by politically active coworkers. Not all ideologies are created equally.

>Not all ideologies are created equally.

Then discourage all irrelevant politics from work and give even less leeway to the "bad" ideologies.

If democratic means are not sufficient to achieve political results you're happy with, then your fellow citizens are not ready for your interpretation of equality and justice. It is antithetical to leverage corporate resources to force your goal. If you happen to be politically vocal without abusing corporate power, then you'd make little political progress, so whether your ideology is good or bad matters very little. You'd just be creating more polarization either way.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#554

Post by spoonjim » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:13 AM UTC

eric4smith wrote: post #7

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

I don’t think your view of the workplace is canonical, but I do want there to be a marketplace of ideas on this where companies can choose different levels of personal/professional blending. I’d like to have some companies as the “family/bring your whole self to work” and others as “keep politics/social justice/etc out of here” and have these publicly listed somewhere with employees able to vote with their feet.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#555

Post by throway98752343 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:14 AM UTC

spoonjim wrote: post #545

randoramax wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ex-Felons have paid their debt to society, or at least get should be considered as such. And still, it's harder for them to get jobs.

They absolutely have not “paid their debt to society” unless they can undo the felony. You can’t pay back the debt of raping someone or stabbing them or killing them. Even if they let you out of jail.

Then why do we let them out of prison at all? It's certainly safer for us law abiding citizens if all the criminals are locked up forever. Even if there are a few false positives.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#556

Post by nobodyandproud » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:15 AM UTC

eric4smith wrote: post #7

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

> The workplace necessarily is going to bring together people that do not agree on personal matters - but who best align on matters relating to... work.

I personally agree. Work and personal life should be completely separate.

Yet employers and other orgs are happy to intrude on one’s personal life.

If you can spy on me at home just because I have a work computer or a work app installed, then don’t be surprised that traditional boundaries will be crossed the other way.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#557

Post by imgabe » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:15 AM UTC

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #411

ThinkBeat wrote: post #371

One part of the article: This is about a guy who wrote a book on his own time, published it outside of work. Someone did not like some parts of the book and the guy had to quit his job? There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. I write fictional stories in my spare time (never at work), I enjoy doing it. Some people enjoy reading them (I can't figure out why) It is a sad day for a Democracy when I…

> There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. We've had this discussion already, but claiming sexist views is going to be a problem for you whether you do it at work or elsewhere because of how laws around hostile work environments and notice work. Particularly, if you go on to actually create a hostile work environment (as one might reasonably suppose you will, having publicly espoused the relevant…

> You'd need to convince workers to not believe that someone who says sexist stuff in a book is going to cause a problem for them.

No. A million times no. If and when an employee creates a hostile work environment, then the employer may address it by disciplining or firing that employee.

Nobody, absolutely nobody, is under any obligation to preemptively address things someone imagines might happen based on their misinterpretation of an out-of-context fragment of writing.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#558

Post by tachyonbeam » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:16 AM UTC

cblconfederate wrote: post #213

I wonder why companies don't take advantage of such rivalries. Separate the wokes from the unwokes and make them compete who will deliver first

Hopefully the market will eventually sort it out.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#559

Post by runako » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:16 AM UTC

narrator wrote: post #549

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are some types of felons that probably don't get hired as managers after release, no matter how long it's been since their crime. For exactly the reason we're discussing. Who in their right mind would put a man who had been convicted of rape in charge of women? How much potential liability would the company be taking on if he were to happen to harm one of his reports? It would be astronomical. Who would…

What if it was assault and battery or grand theft? Wouldn't someone feel justified that they were going to be punched in the face or have their phone stolen while around the person thus creating a hostile work environment? In this case, it was something someone said outside of work which is a whole other level of paranoia.

Are felons convicted of grand theft frequently able to find employ in banks, jewelers, or in other places where valuables might go missing? Or are they largely shut out of those industries based on their criminal histories?

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#560

Post by tshaddox » Sat, May 22, 2021, 5:21 AM UTC

ramblerman wrote: post #461

wpietri wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. I disagree. The notion that humans turn into employer-owned production machinery for 8 hours a day is one very particular way to conceptualize work. But it ignores both the individual as a whole person and the society that contains and enables the workplace to function. To me, even as a former and perhaps future entrepr…

I agree with your sentiment that we are more than replacable robots. But I think for a long time 'a whole person' referred to your character, your hobbies, your family, your quirks. And politics was a small, and usually private part of that. We are in a time now where politics is tribal and has usurped a huge part of people's identities. To the point they see the other tribe as the devil merely by association. And I…

> But I think for a long time 'a whole person' referred to your character, your hobbies, your family, your quirks. And politics was a small, and usually private part of that.

Is it possible that you’re referring to a time when large classes of people had little to no voice in politics or representation in government?