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Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

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Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is opening it up so users have a choice. Third party stores will emerge, and it is up to the consumer, not Apple, to decide whether the extra features are worth the new apps being a little rough around the edges like they are on Android. If it's as bad as you say, the new stores will not be successful anyway.

> The point is opening it up so users have a choice. Users have a choice: Don't use iOS. Their actions have pretty overwhelmingly spoken and they don't care. The only people that care are techies. And most obviously not that much because most meetings I show up to are still full of iPhones.

Have you considered that the choice of phone might be despite this policy rather than because of it?

It is possible to demand better things from something you use. Not every issue is a hill to die on.

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#322
post #72

I really hope the concept of "you can't be anti-competitive if you own the entire ecosystem" dies.

I mean I really haven't heard a good argument against it. Everyone is just complaining that 30% is too high, or it shouldn't apply to IAP for some reason. None of the questions the judged asked really get to the heart of the matter: why should the government get to tell Apple how to run their app store? What makes app stores different than the xbox marketplace or ebay? If the app store was more specific with the type…

The point of Apple existing is to make people’s lives better. That’s the only reason any company exists. If Apple is behaving in a way that makes people’s lives worse, they should have to change. That’s why we live in a society.

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#323
post #68
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The slogans are easy but you need to define what "ecosystem" is so we understand the system-wide implications of these attitudes. Can I for example go to Walmart and setup my own store inside their store without having to ask them? Can I do the same in your local mom-and-pop store?

The closest comparable platforms are probably the consoles. Should Xbox/PlayStation/Nintendo be forced to allow 3rd party app stores on their devices?

Yes.

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#324

It's clear the pricing is far above what a fair market competitive rate would be. I would guess their margins on the app store are 90% or higher. If somebody has the number, please provide. But it's clear the fee is significantly above the investment required to keep it running. Legal precedents regarding private spaces are going to have to change in a lot of ways over the coming decades, as we now live in a world wh…

To me, the value Apple provides is a simple in-app flow to make a purchase. That's worth something. Getting kicked out of an app and having to type credit card info into a browser would suck. But is it worth a 30% markup on each transaction? Well, disclose the fee to users, give them an alternative (shittier) option to pay, and find out. I think an actual free market with forced transparency would settle on transacti…

On my computer, I can often click the “pay with Paypal” button and not need to type in anything. There should be an equivalent feature on iOS to redirect to another app to finish the transaction. After all, I already have an app for my bank and my credit card, why can’t I just pay with those?

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple allows you to sideload those kinds of apps using the developer certificate. Emulators, VMs etc have existed for years. Again it’s far more the form factor that is a restriction than whether it’s downloadable from the store or not.

A while back I paid Apple $99 for the privilege of compiling an open source emulator and side loading it to my iPad and then having to re-load is after some period of time. It was not worth the effort. For the average user, it is not even within the ballpark of their abilities. I would argue that the reason is less form factor and more computational power. The M1 brings best-of-class laptop performance to a tablet, c…

You don’t need to pay to develop or sideboard applications to your idevice.

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#326
"What is the problem with allowing users to have choice, especially in a gaming context, to find a cheaper option for content?"

What's the point in this question?

The answer is clear: that any company wants to limit choice to the extent it helps their business.

Shouldn't the judge be more concerned about the specific nature of the legality of it all?

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#327
post #205
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android doesn’t allow first class alternative stores, and is also not the market leader. It’s obviously not an example for this, otherwise Epic would have just made an Android store and moved on.

> Android doesn’t allow first class alternative stores The only thing that Android doesn't allow is for the third-party stores to auto-update apps installed through those stores. I'm not going to say that's not a big deal, because it's definitely annoying, but I have F-Droid on my phone and get plenty of value out of it, despite having to go through a confirmation dialog to update the apps I've installed through it.…

Good news for you, seems like Android 12 is adding this

https://www.xda-developers.com/android-12-alternative-app-st...

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A while back I paid Apple $99 for the privilege of compiling an open source emulator and side loading it to my iPad and then having to re-load is after some period of time. It was not worth the effort. For the average user, it is not even within the ballpark of their abilities. I would argue that the reason is less form factor and more computational power. The M1 brings best-of-class laptop performance to a tablet, c…

You don’t need to pay to develop or sideboard applications to your idevice.

Yes you do, otherwise you are limited to 2 and forced to resign every week, a purposeful limitation that apple has implemented

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#330
post #52

The best result for customers is that there are alternate ways of putting apps on their own phones that do not require apple's permission. Then the customers that trust apple to protect them will just stay with the app store. The customers that try the alternate ways may find problems, but they will also find enormous positive changes in their ability to do new things on their phone. Personally, I would like the abil…

Most phone users aren’t interested in developing software on their phone. They aren’t interested in developing a better systemd. They have no idea what malware actually is. All that is going to happen if Epic gets their own store is Epic will be collecting the 30% rather than Apple, and the user will get apps that are poorly designed, chew battery, and don’t conform to the UX standards that Apple has set (eg: accessi…

> All that is going to happen if Epic gets their own store is Epic will be collecting the 30% rather than Apple

News flash, Epic already runs a store, and competes with another store (Steam) which takes a 30% cut. How much of a cut does Epic take there? 12%.

There is a well known example of Epic in a similar situation specifically not doing what you say they will, so why assume they will do that? Or are you arguing without knowing this fairly common knowledge of this case?

> the user will get apps that are poorly designed, chew battery, and don’t conform to the UX standards that Apple has set

These are games. They already don't conform to the UI standards. They already chew battery by the nature of what they do, not because they are inefficient. That said, being the authors of the Unreal Engine, Epic is in a key position to make changes so the engine works better with iPhone norms, performs better, and uses less battery and many games would benefit from that. If only Epic had more financial incentive to focus work on the iOS platform...

> and exploit undocumented APIs which change from iOS version to version.

Doubtful. They need to make sure their product is stable across a wide swatch of iOS devices, as individual game makers that license their product will have different support policies and targets. You don't make a widely portable and stable engine across multiple architectures and operating systems by using hidden and unstable APIs unless you have some assurance they aren't going away.

> Epic will blame Apple for all these problems, Apple will blame Epic for not doing sufficient QC, and we’ll be back in court with various store managers demanding that Apple stop changing things.

The blaming I see going on is people that don't really understand the market, the problems, or the incentives making wild conjectures that not only aren't backed up by anything, whether that be logic or evidence, but seem to run counter to that.

> If you want third party stores, there’s the Android ecosystem.

They're being sued too. They take the same cut. You can put an alternate store on Android, but you can't have it function with the same permissions (you need to manually approve each install, and it can't auto-update). This is what keeps third party stores from actually being a reality there. I don't consider secondary stores that ship with the phone on purchase and are part of the customer OS shipped "third party", and that's what has to be done to really compete on the same level as the Play store, and even then, it's not like they're used much. This is all about control and Apple not wanting to give up that very lucrative 30% cut of in app purchases, and subscriptions.

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