Live data from Hacker News

Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

economist.com

411–420 of 1001 posts

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#411

One part of the article: This is about a guy who wrote a book on his own time, published it outside of work. Someone did not like some parts of the book and the guy had to quit his job? There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. I write fictional stories in my spare time (never at work), I enjoy doing it. Some people enjoy reading them (I can't figure out why) It is a sad day for a Democracy when I…

> There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work.

We've had this discussion already, but claiming sexist views is going to be a problem for you whether you do it at work or elsewhere because of how laws around hostile work environments and notice work. Particularly, if you go on to actually create a hostile work environment (as one might reasonably suppose you will, having publicly espoused the relevant views), then the company might be on the hook for enhanced damages based on the idea that they knew or ought to know you posed a risk. Best not to do it in a high profile way if you want to work for a big company where people are sensitive to that sort of thing.

If you want this to stop being the case, there are a few things that would need to happen. It might be that a combination of these would suffice:

You'd need to convince workers to not believe that someone who says sexist stuff in a book is going to cause a problem for them.

You'd need to convince workers to put aside their personal interests in this matter for the greater good (that being the right to write a book that says sexist things but still work at Apple, or wherever).

You'd need to change the law so that companies who know or should know that they have a risky worker don't pay any extra penalty if that worker goes on to harass someone.

There are probably more complex things you could do to solve this problem but I guess those three are the simplest.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#412

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

> The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. I disagree. The notion that humans turn into employer-owned production machinery for 8 hours a day is one very particular way to conceptualize work. But it ignores both the individual as a whole person and the society that contains and enables the workplace to function. To me, even as a former and perhaps future entrepr…

I don't think the argument is that it's some separate sphere entirely disconnected from normal human interaction. It's like saying "the point of a movie night is to hang out and enjoy a movie together". If me and my friends were halfway through a movie, and I stood up and staged a loud political protest against something one of the characters said, my friends would be pretty rightfully unhappy with me.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#413

One part of the article: This is about a guy who wrote a book on his own time, published it outside of work. Someone did not like some parts of the book and the guy had to quit his job? There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. I write fictional stories in my spare time (never at work), I enjoy doing it. Some people enjoy reading them (I can't figure out why) It is a sad day for a Democracy when I…

>There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work.

That's where you are wrong. He wrote some things he genuinely believed in, and its reasonable to assume that his actions will follow similar lines. Would I want a self proclaimed nazi to work with me? Hell no. Would I want a misogynist to work with me? No.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They quite literally are. I would encourage you to listen to the arguments put forth by the Israelis currently settling across the internationally recognized borders in the West Bank.

It is a misunderstanding that Israeli settlements are a mainly religious thing. Yes, there are ideologues for expansion who believe in a God-given right to that land and they make a lot of noise and appeal to ( some ) religious voters. However, a lot of the political support for settlements is based not on religion, but on the idea that Israel is too narrow in its current borders to be easily defended in the long ter…

It really depends on the settlement, but yeah they're not exclusively religious fanatics of course.

In any case, the parent comment claimed nobody was fighting over theology, not "mainly".

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be nice for sure. I think that some people don’t get that privilege still by virtue of who they are. As a recent example that came up in my social circle, say you’re a woman in tech. It turns out that literally every single woman I know in tech has had to deal with at best unwanted propositions but more frequently outright harassment by their male coworkers. In situations like that, you can’t get away from…

The connection to politics in your scenario isn’t clear to me. Are people having charged discussions on Slack about whether men should be allowed to harass women? I would think the scenario would be an open and shut case of going to associate relations to complain about the harassment. No real political discussion to be had.

That's really optimistic. Turns out it doesn't work and usually ends the woman's career at that company -- or maybe she gets some justice and then is destroyed by the folks on the internet who thinks she's just a feminazi b*(&. (I'm showing my age here I guess; I don't know the terminology of kids these days.) Look up Jennifer Blakely, or Kara Woo, or see the 2018 report analyzing 46,210 harassment claims filed with the EEOC or Fair Employment Practices Agencies between 2012 and 2016 that found 65% of women who make complaints lose their jobs soon after. I'm sure someone will helpfully tell me that they probably all sucked at their jobs and so they just complained of sexual harassment before being fired because they're vindictive and/or trying to game the system. It does sort of prove my point but most people who tell me that feel they've discovered something original.

Women just want to go to work and not deal with politics also. That means not being cut out of the stock tips discussed after lunch, not having to deal with egregiously gendered jokes in discussions with the other (all male) managers, not having to do extra office social stuff because "you know women they're good at that", not having their technical work denigrated while supposed soft skills are played up. I can't magically not look female to go to work. So I'm stuck.

Either I put up & shut up or say something, which is then automatically political.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Gay people should have rights". What "rights" currently are being denied to gays? Honest question

Why nitpick over what is clearly an example? But to indulge, prior to the Obergefell ruling, 31 U.S. states held statues banning same-sex unions. That was just 5 years ago.

And employment discrimination was legal in some states less than a year ago.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#417
post #289
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advocating for what things exactly? It might be a strawman, but I’m going to guess and it would be something like an end to perceived workplace raceism/sexism/*isms. If you let in political advocacy movements from the left do you really want political movements from the right? Or is it just ok if the left is advocating for it? I kinda think the left is trying to have their equity cake and eat it too… To some people (…

I mean if we're talking personally, the end of my rope is insurrection. I would not tolerate sympathies towards the events of January 6th. If my manager or other senior staff began expressing them I would have to voice my thoughts on the subject and begin sending resumes. The idea that both sides are equal is just fallacious. One side is advocating to be more aware of systematic racism and the other tried to incite r…

> One side is advocating to be more aware of systematic racism and the other tried to incite revolt while rejecting the validity of our last election. One is advocating for a large discussion and the other is working against democracy.

On some level, you must be aware that the other side frames these issues differently than you do, but with the same ferver and honesty as you.

I happen to believe you're both spouting a load of ill-founded, partisan-driven, ad hoc beliefs, so I'm yet another point of view.

Oh, and "large discussion"? Most people who share your ideology at Google, Facebook, and the like seem much more interested in imposing their point of view on others than in any "large discussion". To they contrary, if we express disagreement in discussion regarding certain issues, they try (and often succeed) in having people like us fired.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#418
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Blind to race" claims often go along with smugly ignoring systemic racism in society and acting like it's a solved problem because a black man was elected President.

I think it’s possible to hold the following two views at the same time: - “systemic racism” is real and not 100% solved - of all the possible strategies to solve systemic racism, racializing all facets of everyday life, including emojis, may not be the most productive

"racializing all facets of everyday life, including emojis"

Every representation of humans is racialized, they exist in a social context where race exists.

Pretending that it is not and then complaining when someone says, "hey, we maybe should make it so not everything looks like white folks" is just silly stuff. Emoji diversity is good and 100% harmless!!

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#419
post #413

One part of the article: This is about a guy who wrote a book on his own time, published it outside of work. Someone did not like some parts of the book and the guy had to quit his job? There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. I write fictional stories in my spare time (never at work), I enjoy doing it. Some people enjoy reading them (I can't figure out why) It is a sad day for a Democracy when I…

>There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. That's where you are wrong. He wrote some things he genuinely believed in, and its reasonable to assume that his actions will follow similar lines. Would I want a self proclaimed nazi to work with me? Hell no. Would I want a misogynist to work with me? No.

[deleted]

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#420

Boards should have more apprehension about their companies being exploited as political platforms by employees. It's as though there is a bargain where in exchange for boards tolerating staff radicalization, these employee groups cheerfully overlook the dystopian, totalitarian surveillance infrastructure, environmental devastation, and political corruption machines they seem to have zero problem building and managing…

> Boards should have more apprehension about their companies being exploited as political platforms by employees. The ownership of these companies are the ones pushing these politics. Their employees are just pointing out their hypocrisy.

They are, and the reason for this was given in the GP:

  "It's as though there is a bargain"
The board and executives know who weilds the stick. If it's the left that generally wants higher corporate taxes, more regulation, more anti-trust, and they control the media, then they're the ones that you want to appease as a bargain.

Adopting wokeness is significantly cheaper than all the alternatives.

The right mostly wants to leave companies alone (aside from the "censorship" issue in social media), have little representation in mainstream media, and are not on social media as much (due to age), so companies don't see them as a threat and don't need to kowtow to them.

Post reply on HN