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Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

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Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is fighting over theological differences, they are fighting over land. Specifically, land that was conquered by the British who promised it to both parties, failed to manage a compromise, tossed the problem to the UN who drew up horrible borders, then allowed Israel to settle beyond those borders without consequence. The entire history of this issue is roughly 100 years old and almost entirely due to imperiali…

They quite literally are. I would encourage you to listen to the arguments put forth by the Israelis currently settling across the internationally recognized borders in the West Bank.

It is a misunderstanding that Israeli settlements are a mainly religious thing. Yes, there are ideologues for expansion who believe in a God-given right to that land and they make a lot of noise and appeal to (some) religious voters. However, a lot of the political support for settlements is based not on religion, but on the idea that Israel is too narrow in its current borders to be easily defended in the long term, so it supposedly has to take the West Bank.

Also, the actual residents of settlements are often non-religious or even outright anti-religious Israelis who were simply priced out of homeowning in Israel proper. There are entire streets in settlements inhabited by families who immigrated from the former USSR for better economic prospects on the basis of Jewish ancestry, but who have absolutely no attachment to Judaism the religion, and they certainly aren’t going to claim a Torah-granted right to anything.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#272
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advocating for what things exactly? It might be a strawman, but I’m going to guess and it would be something like an end to perceived workplace raceism/sexism/*isms. If you let in political advocacy movements from the left do you really want political movements from the right? Or is it just ok if the left is advocating for it? I kinda think the left is trying to have their equity cake and eat it too… To some people (…

This is a really disingenuous false equivalency. First, you're implying that all opinions are equally valid. That is... I'll be polite and simply call it nonsense. "Gay people should have rights" and "gay people shouldn't have rights" are not opinions of equal value, and it's not "eating your cake and having it too" to say that the latter opinion is unwelcome. Second, there's a very clear relationship between the "le…

While there are all kinds of radical opinions, in USA there are two quite clearly established camps of mainstream opinion, and it does seem reasonable that if roughly half of the country (or your state) vote for one candidate and roughly half for the other, then it should imply that the opinions of both of these camps are roughly equally valid from the perspective of the society.

One gets a bit more votes and gets to decide policy, then another gets a bit more votes and gets to decide different policy, but ultimately both groups are part of the society and the workforce, and they should be able to coexist and cooperate while working in a single company. Whatever your stance is on the "left" and "right" topics, people who hold and express the exactly opposite stance, an opinion that you consider invalid and who likely consider your opinion on that political topic invalid in return, those people may be your neighbours and your colleagues and they have the same right to be there as you do, what's sauce for goose is sauce for gander.

And the main criterion for the eligibility of a discussion IMHO is not the relevance of the political topic to workplace (IMHO the target of employer's political dollars are just as valid topic as employer's religious mission, i.e. not at all, and specific discrimination of specific employees in this company would be on-topic but general discrimination issues in the country are exactly just as valid as general immigration policy or general tax policy) but the impact the discussion has on inter-employee relations and conflict. A political topic where strongly opposing co-workers can express their opinions, disagree, shrug, and go on working without the disagreement affecting their cooperation is obviously okay to discuss, but if the discussion of some topic results in employees conflicting for those non-directly-work-related political reasons, or in some employees not expressing their opinion because conflict would be imminent, then that topic is harming work and it would be reasonable to require to put it aside. Because letting it be (or, worse, the employer taking on one of the sides) would be de facto creating a hostile work environment for one or the other groups (whichever happens to be the less dominant at that particular workplace, it definitely cuts both ways), and that's simply not acceptable.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#273

I have no tolerance for politics at work. As far as woke at work goes, not too long ago someone in my office commented on slack "I don't approve of unnecessarily gendered emoji" - I can't even begin to imagine what sort of mind produces such thoughts. First world problems? No idea.

the one that gets me is adding race to emoji. they all used to be 'Simpsons yellow', a skin tone not found in any ethnic or racial group, and as such not representing or excluding any group but now we have black white and other various skin tones for our happy-faces. WHY? Does black happy face mean something different than white happy face isn't happiness universal? why bring race into something that was simply meant…

> why bring race into something

Because making everything about race is how we fight racism... somehow...

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#274
post #249
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why so many people get so angry about something so inconsequential.

No one is angry. That's the point. The point is that no one should care about race, but everyone all of the sudden is.

But we're talking about expanding the color palette on a set of icons. If no one is angry about it, why do people keep complaining about it?

>The point is that no one should care about race, but everyone all of the sudden is.

This doesn't read like the opinion of someone who isn't angry about something.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a really disingenuous false equivalency. First, you're implying that all opinions are equally valid. That is... I'll be polite and simply call it nonsense. "Gay people should have rights" and "gay people shouldn't have rights" are not opinions of equal value, and it's not "eating your cake and having it too" to say that the latter opinion is unwelcome. Second, there's a very clear relationship between the "le…

Politics at work is still politics at work. I'm generalizing a bit here for sake of the point. There is a large amount of people advocating that other people with leanings and opinions should have their services, contracts, and professional relationships cancelled. Based on their personal politics. This cuts both ways. If companies can rightfully do that to customers, then it is also legit for them to do it to employ…

Where do you draw the line between "personal politics" and "fundamentally wrong?" In the 1950s and 1960s some people felt the line was segregation.

The problem is when human decency is equated to "personal politics" (or vice versa). Some of the lines are obvious to me, but others are more blurred. At the end of the day, reasonable people can work around those fuzzy boundaries without issue.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#276
I always find myself amused at how the people who are involved in the political, social, and other flame wars in the workplace find time to do actual work. Just looking at the threads from earlier this week, I see a couple dozen people posting 50+ posts each every day for at least 2-3 days (each post is anywhere from a half-page to two pages of text with links, images, etc). It would take me at least 5-10 mins per post so we are looking at 6 hrs per day on average. Honestly it’s on low end since they also read other posts I would guess ;)

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#277

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

> Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work?

I don't think that is very persuasive, because it is quite common in most other places petitions are circulated for the petitions to have nothing to do with the activity at that place. For example, of all the petitions I've been asked to sign outside grocery stores or inside shopping malls I don't recall a single one being about things concerning grocery stores or malls.

A better argument would be that when someone circulates a petition at work they are circulating it among people they know, and those people know that they know the petitioner, and that the people who will be offered the petition after them know them.

If I sign a petition at a mall, probably no one I know will notice. If I don't sign the petition, no one I know will know that I was offered the chance and declined.

Not so at work. A petition at work as a side effect is essentially asking everyone to publicly declare their stance on the subject of the petition.

I think a good argument can be made that at work there should be a right to not contribute to discussions not related to work, and to not have such non-contribution held against you. A petition essentially forces you to contribute, and it is a bad form of contribution because your contribution is not accompanied by an explanation greatly increasing the chances of it being misunderstood.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a really disingenuous false equivalency. First, you're implying that all opinions are equally valid. That is... I'll be polite and simply call it nonsense. "Gay people should have rights" and "gay people shouldn't have rights" are not opinions of equal value, and it's not "eating your cake and having it too" to say that the latter opinion is unwelcome. Second, there's a very clear relationship between the "le…

When you say, "all opinions are equally valid", what does the word "valid" mean? It seems to be this word is doing a lot of work and if you explore this your position will quickly collapse. Opinions are generally about moral issues - what we should do, what goals we should pursue. They are not about positive facts like "how many people live in America". In the arena of goal-setting there are indeed no objective facts…

[deleted]

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#279
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The office exists within society. Some things exist everywhere you go in society. You don't give up ethics and morals because you cross the threshold of your place of business. Ignoring social problems in the workplace because it is a workplace is how we avoid solving those problems as a society. The office is exactly where we should be advocating for things, because it is where we spend the most time and can affect…

Oof. There isn't room to just go to work... to work? I want to go to the office and interact with people who are the best at what they do, I want my company to hire those people, and I expect them to hold me to equal standards. When the office was explicitly segregated, men vs women, black vs white, whatever,sure,they're could have been room for politics to change that in the workplace. It doesn't seem the same now.…

That would be nice for sure. I think that some people don’t get that privilege still by virtue of who they are. As a recent example that came up in my social circle, say you’re a woman in tech. It turns out that literally every single woman I know in tech has had to deal with at best unwanted propositions but more frequently outright harassment by their male coworkers. In situations like that, you can’t get away from “politics,” because the politically charged situations come to you.

And I’d much rather work in a workplace where we make it clear, publicly, that that kind of behavior is unacceptable than one where we ignore it because we don’t want to talk politics at work.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#280
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Gay people should have rights". What "rights" currently are being denied to gays? Honest question

--Protected-- These groups in USA have some subtle, hard to prove discrimination. If you're not in the group it's hard to even perceive and/or understand (it's why the issue is so hot-button). Like all those prospect-hires who never got a call back - as they weren't "a cultural fit for our company" on record. But maybe (and heres the nearly impossible part to prove) the hiring manager didn't like them cause they /sou…

It would be possible to say that one was not hired about all groups, including White Christian men. This happens a lot but no one talks about it for some reason.

E.g. we didn’t really feel that Mr. Ciswhitechristan was a great cultural fit because we are trying to foster a diverse and equitable workplace and we need more protected groups. /s

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