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Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

economist.com

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Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#111

Post by prepend »

nefitty wrote: post #79
nailer wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From having read about the details: someone took a list making fun of mainly European (‘white’ in American) names and posted an image saying mocking people leads to genocide. Yes this is easily separable from making productivity tools.

Although my immediate reaction to the Pyramid of Hate [1] was a similar jump to, “is this saying jokes will lead to genocide?!”, ultimately I don’t think that was the intent. People seemed to have interpreted it in different ways, specifically “You’re telling me I support genocide if I think someone’s name is funny?” I think the people who brought the pyramid into the equation were pointing out how individual behavio…

> I think the people who brought the pyramid into the equation were pointing out how individual behaviors, in aggregate, lead to greater possibilities of increased oppression.

I don’t think I accept this theory. But if I did, it’s not relevant because the list wasn’t making fun of “others” and seemed to have no correlation to any particular vulnerable population.

So it’s both an issue of an arguable diagram in the first place (even if the ADL created it) introduced in a place that was not relevant since there were very few Asian names on the list yet the discussion seemed to really get into racial issues that didn’t apply to the situation.

Of course, had employees been mocking or belittling people because of their race or the list was 94% Asian (instead of the 94% euro) then it’s a different story and the discussion would be very different. But that’s not “woke” that’s just enforcing ethical codes in employees to not discriminate based on race.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#112

Post by strken »

SeanBoocock wrote: post #43
stephc_int13 wrote: post #33

The reason why politics is traditionally frowned upon in the workplace is to avoid toxic peer pressure and the resulting uniformity. It is illegal to discriminate against employees for their political opinions, religion, sexual orientation, race, ethnic background, etc. Allowing or even encouraging open political debates in the workplace jeopardizes it.

Political opinions are not protected in the same way, nor should they be, as the protected classes you cite (gender identity, sexual orientation, ethnicity, etc).

Lawful political beliefs, affiliations, and actions are a protected attribute in Australia[0]. I have no idea whether this forces you to hire e.g. actual Nazis, although they'd probably have some unlawful beliefs.

[0] https://www.humanrights.vic.gov.au/for-individuals/political...

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#113

Post by yakshaving_jgt »

tshaddox wrote: post #90
nailer wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grandparent was asking what those purposes are, not what amount of them there are.

And I offered one place to look for an answer: one’s own purposes for engaging in this very discussion.

The logical conclusion here is that you're implying that you can't engage in a discussion without first forcing your employer to vocally take a position on the issue.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#114

Post by ed25519FUUU »

throwaway1959 wrote: post #72
Opt_Out_Fed_IRS wrote: post #56

This sort of stuff happens when society reaches a level of prosperity so high that it starts worrying about nonsense None of this happens in Mexico The US needs to import fresh blood and fresh brains if it wants to survive. Less people studying social trends and more studying consumer trends.

Legal, high-skilled immigrants from Mexico and other countries, - yes!

Are you discussing politics?!

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#115

Post by ricardobeat »

seibelj wrote: post #16

Why can’t we just let the market sort it out? Let the people who want to talk politics all day start, lead, and work at firms that encourage it. And those that don’t will do the same. It’s my same issue with socialists who want democratic control of companies. If it’s so obviously better, why not start one yourself? Or use government money to do so (socialists, after all). I just wish everyone would voluntarily assoc…

It's funny, but individuals with privileged positions using government money to do X is much more of a mark of capitalism.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#116

Post by corty »

Tycho wrote: post #30

The weird thing is how it’s all seems so co-ordinated. As if the HR departments of every firm get their marching orders from some central advocacy group.

These things are like some kind of social software. Behaviour patterns that HR departments or other departments use, because they worked well for others, get around the consequences of some legal precedent, or simply because they are fashionable. As examples, take casual friday, adding "(m/f)" to job offers, or giving out stock options.

We are all just apes apeing each other after all ;)

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#117

Post by tshaddox »

ixacto wrote: post #50
duped wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The office exists within society. Some things exist everywhere you go in society. You don't give up ethics and morals because you cross the threshold of your place of business. Ignoring social problems in the workplace because it is a workplace is how we avoid solving those problems as a society. The office is exactly where we should be advocating for things, because it is where we spend the most time and can affect…

Advocating for what things exactly? It might be a strawman, but I’m going to guess and it would be something like an end to perceived workplace raceism/sexism/*isms. If you let in political advocacy movements from the left do you really want political movements from the right? Or is it just ok if the left is advocating for it? I kinda think the left is trying to have their equity cake and eat it too… To some people (…

> To some people (I am not one of them at all, but I understand the argument) any abortion is literally murder, and it as a sincerely held belief as the recent movements like BLM and #metoo were.

This as well as other parts of your comment seem to imply that you believe the sincerity or intensity with which one holds a particular belief is one of the most important factors in the merits of that belief. I personally do not think this is the case.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#118

Post by ghufran_syed »

moomin wrote: post #14
eric4smith wrote: post #7

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

It’s well worth reading up on the details of the Basecamp disaster. At every point in the process, it was about work. How people behaved at work, how clients were treated, how people reacted to feedback, how information was communicated. It may have been “politics” but it was in no way separable from Basecamp‘s core business.

It’s too early yet to see whether the whole episode at basecamp was net positive or negative for the company.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#119

Post by geodel »

duped wrote: post #21
eric4smith wrote: post #7

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

The office exists within society. Some things exist everywhere you go in society. You don't give up ethics and morals because you cross the threshold of your place of business. Ignoring social problems in the workplace because it is a workplace is how we avoid solving those problems as a society. The office is exactly where we should be advocating for things, because it is where we spend the most time and can affect…

> You don't give up ethics and morals because you cross the threshold of your place of business.

Calling this rabid politics as 'ethics' and 'morals' is a neat trick. It is like calling "freedom to not air one's views', 'freedom to get fired for non PC views', 'freedom to be deplatformed' as actual freedom.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#120

Post by monoideism »

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #3

> last week Alphabet, Google’s parent, had to deal with another internal petition circulating among employees, this one calling on the firm’s leadership to make a statement “recognising the violence in Palestine and Israel”. It's a special kind of hubris to believe that despite over a thousand years of conflict in the region, the right people to comprehensively understand and solve the problem are some people who mak…

> It's a special kind of hubris to believe that despite over a thousand years of conflict in the region,

The recent conflict in Israel/Palestine dates from the early 1900s, with a big acceleration around 1946-48.

Prior to that, the last longterm conflict in the region was over 500 years beforehand, in the Crusades.

But yeah, I agree that it's big hubris for some relatively ignorant and pampered American kids to believe they can solve it, or even properly understand it.

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