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Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

bloomberg.com

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Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#61

Post by badkitty99 »

simion314 wrote: post #58
bogwog wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My iPhone XS Max screen cracked a few weeks ago and I've been debating sending it in for repair. Apple charges $300 friggin dollars to "fix" the display (I think they just send you a new phone). Looking online, displays only cost around $50-$90. So I've considered doing that instead, but if I go down that route, my phone will no longer support the "True Tone" feature. This is because Apple burned the serial number of…

>I don't understand how this isn't 100% illegal. It might be illegal but you would need to fight in court for ears so existing laws are applied.

Years of campaigning for the masses to be scared to open their devices has payed off big time, hardly anyone dares to void their warranty, let alone take a stance against daddy Apple

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#62

Post by simondotau »

katbyte wrote: post #16
3GuardLineups wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

inb4 all the Apple shills who will claim they only ever want a product in a completely sandboxed environment where the device manufacturer holds their hand every step of the way

I live Apple and I want them to verify hardware, but I also want to ability to go “yes I k know this isn’t an apple screen/battery or said display has changed - use it anyways or register it”

So then the dodgy repair shop just adds dismissal of that warning to their post-repair validation procedure and the consumer remains none the wiser.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#63

Post by techrat »

com2kid wrote: post #29
formerly_proven wrote: post #4

Reduce reuse recycle is fundamentally against the business model of BigCorpos. Of course they will fight tooth and nail against legislation that impinges on their business model [1]. It goes to show how good Apple's PR department is that people view them as an eco-oriented company (hint: they're literally in the "producing consumer e-waste market"). But I mean people these days also think Microsoft are open-source fr…

As someone who used to work in consumer electronics, I don't think HN readers understand exactly how harsh tech reviewers come down on devices that aren't as thin as possible. Add an extra millimeter and all of a sudden "tech companies yet again don't understand female audiences as they make yet another monstrously huge device that only men can use." or "this new version is unbelievably thick, and is another failure…

When Apple based their keynotes on how this device is "xxx THIN" instead of "xxx THICK"... that really pushed the god-awful trend of making devices thinner at all costs when I never had a problem pocketing my smart phone or bagging my netbook before Apple declared all others to be too thick. I miss having laptops I could actually easily work on and know that it wasn't going to hit thermal throttling due to the lack of fans or proper sized heatsinks.

In the end, people started paying more for things that were built more cheaply. Thinness from Apple wasn't about being sleek and sexy, it was about reducing material costs first and foremost. Surprised that part of it all was completely missed by reviewers. I still think they went too easy on Apple with regards to the iPhone 6 bendgate issue. It, at most, was "oh no, it bends..." and not "What the shit, Apple? You're reducing the aluminum to such thin layers that it's no longer structurally supportive?!"

And what do we see now? Soldered in back glass pieces. Not glued. *SOLDERED.* Environmentally friendly, my ass.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#64

Post by techrat »

squarefoot wrote: post #30

Then let's vote using our wallet when shopping for example for a laptop or a phone. Companies such as Purism and Pine64 already offer alternatives, the former in the higher end market, the latter in the more affordable one. Their devices are as much open as possible, and repairable. Hacking them is not only accepted but actually encouraged.

I've been trying to import a FairPhone, myself. Why they're making it so difficult to get one in the states is beyond me.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#65

Post by lolinder »

gerash wrote: post #57
nrp wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The repairability index that France rolled out this year is great in that regard. Sellers of certain types of devices including smartphones and laptops are required to post a repairability score for the product prominently next to the price tag. This highlights to consumers which products are designed to be usable for longer through repair and upgrade and which aren’t, even if they otherwise look and function similar…

I haven't seen the repairability index yet it sounds very arbitrary and prone to be gamed. There is no need to micro manage how a device manufacturer designs their products as long as they offset the pollution they create by either paying the local governments to dig more landfills or recycle their own products or send it over to someone who can recycle. There are still open problems on how to measure the pollution b…

Paying for more landfills hardly offsets the pollution from a smartphone. Recycling might be better, but my understanding is that the worst damage is done in the mining/refining/manufacturing, not in the final home in a landfill.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#66

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

908B64B197 wrote: post #41
nrp wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The repairability index that France rolled out this year is great in that regard. Sellers of certain types of devices including smartphones and laptops are required to post a repairability score for the product prominently next to the price tag. This highlights to consumers which products are designed to be usable for longer through repair and upgrade and which aren’t, even if they otherwise look and function similar…

That's a good approach. What would be even more interesting is to evaluate how reliable parts are. Spinning hard drives were often the first thing to fail for instance, due to the mechanical stress. Same thing for ports. Soldered-on RAM and flash, while almost impossible to upgrade, is way more reliable. No vibrations means way less mechanical stress.

Flash doesn't fail due to mechanical stress, it fails due to wear cycles which are limited in every case. In every PC or laptop I can replace the flash storge except in the newer devices of the famous fruity manufacturer.

And RAM may be reliable but when it's replaceable it means I can upgrade it and use the device for longer instead of having to buy a new device.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#67

Post by kiba »

com2kid wrote: post #29
formerly_proven wrote: post #4

Reduce reuse recycle is fundamentally against the business model of BigCorpos. Of course they will fight tooth and nail against legislation that impinges on their business model [1]. It goes to show how good Apple's PR department is that people view them as an eco-oriented company (hint: they're literally in the "producing consumer e-waste market"). But I mean people these days also think Microsoft are open-source fr…

As someone who used to work in consumer electronics, I don't think HN readers understand exactly how harsh tech reviewers come down on devices that aren't as thin as possible. Add an extra millimeter and all of a sudden "tech companies yet again don't understand female audiences as they make yet another monstrously huge device that only men can use." or "this new version is unbelievably thick, and is another failure…

The problem is not the thinness of devices, but the fact that manufacturers go out of their way to make these devices harder to repair.

They include things like special screw, limiting sales of parts, and serializing parts so you can't use replacement parts to repair another.

The fact that certain devices or parts requiring specialist tool is a non-issue.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#68

Post by kiba »

KorematsuFred wrote: post #52
least wrote: post #23

My main complaint against right-to-repair laws is mostly to the extent that some people push for. I am not against manufacturers being forced to provide things like schematics or parts to third party repair shops. I don't think that companies like Apple should be able to decide who is allowed to or not allowed to access parts to repair their devices. I also don't think that Apple should place DRM on its parts to chec…

I have never understood the demand for "right to repair" laws any ways. Don't you know the terms of repair before you buy the device ? Simply don't buy an iphone if you want to repair it yourself. If there is enough market for repairable devices someone will make them eventually otherwise you are only imposing a huge compliance cost on everyone else and slow down innovation for many companies.

People want schematics and parts available for purchase, as well prohibition of companies from going out of their way to make devices harder to repair as opposed to having to work with design constraint.

It's not that complicated or costly to enforce.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#69

Post by Brian_K_White »

saurik wrote: post #48
hervature wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's different because they are recognizing that the issue isn't binary. It' not "bad for the environment" vs "good for the environment". It's recognizing there is a gradient of solutions ranging from "slowly increasing car efficiencies over time to allow for change" and "outright banning fossil fuels starting tomorrow". It's recognizing that "repairability" isn't the only thing to be optimized for.

...but the other thing being optimized for is "thinness"? As a society, you are saying sometimes we should just accept that things will be bad for the environment, maybe even horribly so and at a massive scale... because, otherwise, they can't be thin enough?

Reducing size is always good. It's just one of many metrics of efficiency and greater efficiency is always good.

If a new part is smaller than an old part, the new part probably uses less materials. Less heavy metals in the solder and component body etc, less weight for shipping which burns all kinds of fuels, etc etc.

Saying "thinness" is kind of stupid, because making the full outside shape of something too tiny to even use, is the stupidest way to use a decrease in the size of all the parts inside.

The gains could just as well be taken advantage of by filling the same space with other stuff like more battery or even empty air.

Taking the idea to an unlikely extreme just to illustrate: A phone that was the exact same size as my current one, and performed the same jobs no better or worse than my cirrent one, but which was mostly a hollow shell just to give my hand something to hold and screen to see, and all the eletronics were in a little glass thumbnail would be perfectly great on several fronts.

Reduced component size has made an infinity of things either more efficient, or made them possible at all instead of impossible. There is no such thing as "small enough already". That's identical to saying "efficient enough already".

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#70

Post by daveslash »

hawski wrote: post #6

I really like Thom Holwerda's from OSnews take on the article. Especially the "glorified toaster makers" part. https://www.osnews.com/story/133436/microsoft-and-apple-wage... > What’s good enough for the car industry, is more than good enough for these glorified toaster makers. Cars are basically murder weapons we kind of screwed ourselves into being reliant on, but Apple and Microsoft make complicated toasters that…

Love this take on it. That said, there's a California State Bill SB-605 "Medical Device Right to Repair Act" that's going through the motions at the moment. Medical devices are not "basically murder weapons we kind of screwed ourselves into being reliant on". I'd like to hear what peoples' take on Medical Devices is?
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