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Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

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Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#241

Post by Daishiman »

tshaddox wrote: post #168
mason55 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then the customers that trust apple to protect them will just stay with the app store. The problem is that if it’s possible to trick grandpa into downloading a malicious app then it will happen. The only defense is to not make it possible. You can argue if that’s a worthy goal or not but thats what Apple has to do if they want to make it impossible to trick people into downloading malware.

This is the point that people keep missing. The most common argument is “just let people install whatever software they want and if they install something bad that’s their fault.” But the point is that, if Apple does allow sideloading apps, customer satisfaction with iPhones will almost certainly go down . Can you argue that those new unsatisfied customers are to blame? Sure. But Apple probably actually cares about h…

And if you allow cars to be repaired some cars might eventually be fixed the wrong way and crash. Same with my home appliances. Yet that doesn't seem to be an argument.

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#242

Post by kergonath »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #100
mason55 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then the customers that trust apple to protect them will just stay with the app store. The problem is that if it’s possible to trick grandpa into downloading a malicious app then it will happen. The only defense is to not make it possible. You can argue if that’s a worthy goal or not but thats what Apple has to do if they want to make it impossible to trick people into downloading malware.

It's possible to trick grandpa into sending money to Nigeria, too, but we don't use that as an excuse for forcing him to do business with a particular bank.

Nobody sane would argue that our current approach to banking security is fine, though. There definitely is money to be made with more secure and convenient money transfer, as proved by the quite large number of start-ups in the field. Among these, quite a lot work only among users of the same app without anybody being outraged about it.

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#243

Post by threeseed »

hyperpallium2 wrote: post #223
threeseed wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is the evidence that allowing sideloaded apps will result in an explosion of desktop class apps ? Hasn’t been the case with Android. And I would say the touch centric form factor is far more an issue.

termux is pretty popular. Though android is locking down, making this kind of app difficult in future.

It’s pretty popular amongst a tiny fraction of the Linux developer community.

They are not the type of people who are buying iPads or will be spending big within the Apple ecosystem.

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#244

Post by kergonath »

skohan wrote: post #129
fooey wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pretty obvious solution is to not buy Apple devices I have never owned an Apple device, but they clearly believe locking them down is part of the appeal of the devices in the first place. If you want an impartial platform get an android; if you want a curated ecosystem get an apple

> but they clearly believe locking them down is part of the appeal of the devices in the first place. Do they believe that? Their behavior and stance could equally be explained by pursuing their economic best-interest

They most definitely are. But they figured that aligning their interests with their users’ brings in quite a lot of money. Security and privacy certainly is part of the appeal of iOS devices, and strict sandboxing and app vetting is part of that. So is not having to leave your card details on the developer’s database every time you buy an app.

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#245

Post by zepto »

kelnos wrote: post #217
zepto wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which will happen pretty instantly since the stores will buy exclusives.

Will it, though? My expectation is that most apps will still want to be on the main App Store if they can, since installing a third-party app store still represents friction to the install experience. Perhaps in a more mature market where having several app stores on your phone is commonplace (assuming that even happens), we'll have an annoying situation of exclusives, but I don't expect that "instantly" or even remo…

Yes, it will happen instantly.

Well funded app stores will just pay up front for exclusives. It’s completely standard practice in any comparable industry. Music, TV, Movies, books, podcasts, etc.

Developers might abstractly prefer to be on the main store, but some will be happy to take million dollar payouts from the marketing budgets of the new stores.

It’s hard enough for independents to be successful now, but once you have competing publishers like Epic in the game, the era of independent commercial app development will be over.

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#246

Post by skinnymuch »

mattkevan wrote: post #199
skohan wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The new iPads literally have the same SOC as what are some of, if not the best consumer laptops on the planet currently. But what can you do with them? Not a heck of a lot, thanks to the walled garden that is iPad OS. If you ask me, that's a crying shame. I don't see how it hurts anyone to allow side-loading of apps on iOS devices. Even if you make it as hard as having a toggle behind a scary warning 2 layers deep in…

By create you mean develop, right? The iPad is already one of the best creation tools out there for artists, musicians, photographers etc. I’d suggest the iPad is hampered more by the limits of iPadOS’ multitasking UI and it’s roots as a scaled-up phone OS - and the scarcity of truly pro-level software - rather than the App Store and not being able to sideload. In fact the only real reasons to sideload or jailbreak a…

No one really jailbreaks for cracked apps. There are many small reasons to jailbreak. Most apps are paid via in app purchases that can’t be cracked. Very few apps are paid and popular enough to be cracked and not crash upon attempting to use. It is something that may have been true a decade ago. The cliche needs to stop ever since in app purchases took over most spending.

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#247

Post by egocentric »

mordymoop wrote: post #185
manicdee wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most phone users aren’t interested in developing software on their phone. They aren’t interested in developing a better systemd. They have no idea what malware actually is. All that is going to happen if Epic gets their own store is Epic will be collecting the 30% rather than Apple, and the user will get apps that are poorly designed, chew battery, and don’t conform to the UX standards that Apple has set (eg: accessi…

Indeed. The customer is, of course, the people buying the phones and buying the software, and not the developers. The judge seems a little vague on this fact. One has to either accept that the customers buy Apple because they prefer it this way, or else assert that the customers are too dumb to know what’s good for them. That may be literally true but isn’t really a classically good argument you would use to pin some…

Apple doesn’t let developers tell their users what Apple’s rules are, including the fact that up to 30% of their payment goes straight to Apple.

And of course people don’t know of all the good apps that never get to be on the App Store because of unwarranted rejections.

So people generally have no idea about most of the problems with the status quo.

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#248

Post by zepto »

kelnos wrote: post #205
zepto wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android doesn’t allow first class alternative stores, and is also not the market leader. It’s obviously not an example for this, otherwise Epic would have just made an Android store and moved on.

> Android doesn’t allow first class alternative stores The only thing that Android doesn't allow is for the third-party stores to auto-update apps installed through those stores. I'm not going to say that's not a big deal, because it's definitely annoying, but I have F-Droid on my phone and get plenty of value out of it, despite having to go through a confirmation dialog to update the apps I've installed through it.…

> Which is entirely irrelevant.

If it was irrelevant, Epic would have just created an Android store and let Apple go their own way.

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#249

Post by protoman3000 »

GloriousKoji wrote: post #19

There's a lot of debate and fine tuning of what should be allowed regarding things like the size of apple's cut, side loading or allowing a 3rd party appstore but it's painfully clear to me that banning app developers from even mentioning an alternate payment method is very anti-consumer.

Yeah, they should have made it such that Epic is required to say (“mention”) that any items purchased with V-Bucks from outside the AppStore cannot be used on the iOS app. I don’t see how advertising another platform in their iOS app would be fair, though. It’s not like you’d find it ok if Google pushed ads for the new Pixel phone on the notifications in their iOS apps.

Re: Judge in Fortnite case holds Tim Cook's feet to the fire

#250

Post by zepto »

kbenson wrote: post #211
zepto wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android doesn’t allow first class alternative stores, and is also not the market leader. It’s obviously not an example for this, otherwise Epic would have just made an Android store and moved on.

> Android doesn’t allow first class alternative stores Don't change the goal posts. Apple doesn't provide anything . Having to pass through a dialogue after download t confirm install isn't ideal, but possible is better than not. > and is also not the market leader. Android is at 45% and apple is at 55%.[1] Is your contention that a least of that amount is sufficient such that it actually changes this in some way? If…

> Android is at 45% and apple is at 55%.

These are the wrong numbers to look at. App profits are what count here - that’s what Epic wants to tap into.

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