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Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

bbc.com

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Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#191

Post by thaumasiotes »

henearkr wrote: post #168
Iv wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a French living in Japan one of the things I quickly learned is that if I complain about something while showing even a hint of anger or annoyingness, my interlocutor will take it personally, even if he/she is not involved about the thing as well.

Was you complaint about something related to Japan or the life there or the administration? Japanese people very easily feel compelled to defend their group, because if not they are often treated as "anti-japanese" by the most right-wing (which are the most vocal) of their relations/neighbors. This in turn leads to a lot of self-censorship.

> Was you complaint about something related to Japan or the life there or the administration?

I think you're on the wrong track; some people just take everything personally. Compare this story from an American married to an American: ( https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=49908 )

> Early in our marriage I’d find myself in the middle of situations like this:

>> Shamus is struggling with some ridiculous multi-stage problem with Windows 98.

>> Shamus: AAAAAAARG. WHAT THE FUCK?!!??! FRRRGGGKKKKK.

>> He can’t hold it any longer. He slams his fist into the bottom-right of his keyboard and caves in the bottom of the numpad. He’s vaguely aware that he’s just injured his hand, but he can’t feel it yet because of the adrenaline rush.

>> Heather dashes into the room in a panic.

>> Heather: What’s wrong?!?!?!

>> Shamus struggles to get a grip on himself

>> Shamus: It’s… Windows. It… first it wanted the disk, and THEN it says it can’t FIND the disk even though the disk is FUCKING RIGHT THERE! I CAN SEE IT IN THE FILE EXPLORER BUT WINDOWS WON’T LET ME FUCKING ACCESS IT AND THEN–

>> Heather slams her hands over her ears and looks like she’s on the edge of tears.

>> Heather: Stop shouting at me!

> I’ve lost count of the number of times I shouted, “I’M NOT ANGRY AT YOU, I’M JUST ANGRY.”

> Once I understood some of the problem, I was able to explain it to my wife. Now she knows not to dash into the room just because I’m shouting at Uplay or whatever.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#192

Post by jogjayr »

antonvs wrote: post #149
jogjayr wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Penultimate" is American slang for "really awesome"?

Nope. Parent was attempting a weird joke, which failed badly.

I don't get the joke.

It seemed somewhat plausible or serious to me because "ultimate" is slang for "really cool" in India. (At least it was when I was growing up; who knows what the cool kids there say these days.) But I was puzzled because I've spent the majority of my adult life in North America, and never heard "penultimate" used that way.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#193

Post by k_sze »

PopePompus wrote: post #180

This is somewhat off-topic, but as a native English speaker who has spent a lot of time conversing in English with non-native speakers, I've been struck by how many times non-native speakers will come up with a phrase that is perfectly proper English, but nothing a native speaker would ever have said, and quite poetic. It's often a charming surprise.

I'm glad you appreciate that. My mother tongue is Cantonese and for a long time I spoke French better than English because I moved to Montreal when I was a kid. I still say weird things in English, even though, like you said, they are perfectly proper English; mostly just because I don't know the native idioms.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#194

Post by stephen_g »

hardwaregeek wrote: post #166
Iv wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laugh, but talking with Japanese, something that often happens is: A: "Shouldn't I launch the nukes?" B: "No." Can be understood as "yes, do it" because they are used to an opposite logic when answering negation. "Yes" means "I agree with the negation" and no the opposite. And they seem to have a hard time accepting that the logic is different in English.

There’s the classic “you can’t add too much water to the reactor” where “can’t” can mean you are physically incapable of adding too much water, and therefore should add a lot, or “can’t” can mean you must not add to much water.

Yes, but that’s not so much a problem with the language but more an issue of sentence construction. A big part of good communication in any language is anticipating that sort of ambiguity and adding context or rephrasing to remove it if required.

‘Can’t’ is really too passive to use if it really is ‘must not’ for anything serious, so while the sentence could work either way in spoken communication (because you can convey enough context with tone of voice and emphasis to imply which sense you mean), it would still not be a great choice of words if you mean the second sense.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#195

Post by _carbyau_ »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #173
bsder wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever spoken to a Glaswegian while imitating their accent and found that they understand you better? I was really worried that people would think I was making fun of them, but, in reality, they just thought that my horrible American accent had gotten a little bit better. :)

I even have to do that with Australians as a Kiwi - asking for a "pen" sounds to them like I want a "pin", so I have to stretch my vowels and ask for a "peeen" which sounds to me like I'm taking the piss, but they don't seem to take offense, and then hand me a pen.

As an aussie, I guess I might notice you sound a bit odd but appreciate that you are making an extra effort over and above the usual. Not going to complain about that!

Also, given how poorly aussie accent is portrayed in so many TV shows and movies - even by australian actors because "they have to" - we might be used to it and see your effort as pretty minimal.

I'd give you a pen anyday. Have a good one!

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#196

Post by Agingcoder »

skyde wrote: post #162
Agingcoder wrote: post #85

There is another aspect beyond raw vocabulary and grammar, and that's unspoken cultural assumptions :not abbreviations and slang, but real misunderstandings caused by different understandings of what seems to be a set of perfectly obvious sentences to both sides . A branch of my company went through a merger with another branch in a different country, and with a different language. Needless to say, it was difficult,…

what do you mean by 'forcefully' but very indirectly.

Sorry I wasn't clear. They think they are making their point quite strongly with very explicit language, but are wrapping it in all kinds of polite conditionals and ifs and hidden meanings, making it, well, less explicit : they are being indirect.

Your cat is on your kitchen table, looking at the chicken. Me: Indirect : is the cat supposed to be on the table ? Direct : your cat is about to eat the chicken! get away cat!

Obviously, to one culture, the 'is the cat...' version is quite explicit and forceful. To the other, not at all.

https://multiculturalyou.com/2020/06/22/direct-and-indirect-...

(I didn't read the whole thing, but the first two sections or so are pretty much what I meant)

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#197

Post by bradknowles »

Agingcoder wrote: post #85

There is another aspect beyond raw vocabulary and grammar, and that's unspoken cultural assumptions :not abbreviations and slang, but real misunderstandings caused by different understandings of what seems to be a set of perfectly obvious sentences to both sides . A branch of my company went through a merger with another branch in a different country, and with a different language. Needless to say, it was difficult,…

The related story my wife tells regarding when the Belgian company she was working for had just acquired their Dutch counterpart. The new owners sent high level executives to talk to all the new employees and reassure them of what was going to happen. The primary speaker was chosen because he was a native Flemish speaker and spoke multiple dialects as well as multiple other languages.

When they arrived and got into the meeting hall, the speaker leaned heavily on the word for “worker”. He promised that everything they would do would be in tight coordination with the Workers Council, etc…. I think he probably used it in just about every other sentence he spoke.

At the very end of his long presentation, he asked if anyone present had any questions. There was just one — an older man in the back held up his hand and said:

“You do realize that the Flemish word for ‘worker’ is also the Dutch word for ‘slave’, right?”

Oy.

Language is hard. It’s easy to misinterpret, even if you think you’re an expert, and even if you’re communicating in person.

But e-mail eliminates all the unspoken communication like body language and actual tone of voice, which is about 90% of all normal human communication.

We need to keep these things in mind, every time we communicate with someone, even if it is in person, and we think we are an expert.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#198

Post by heurisko »

Kreotiko wrote: post #126

It doesn’t help that native English speakers are less inclined to learn another language and don’t get to understand the experience of being at the other end

There isn't the same motivation if you already speak the lingua franca.

My experience learning a foreign language as a native English speaker, is that people in the target country are sometimes puzzled as to why you want to learn it.

They also then have a strong preference to practice English with you instead, which is understandable, if not frustrating.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#199

Post by sime2009 »

tomcooks wrote: post #124
sime2009 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing "infamous". You know, when someone becomes more than just famous, then become "infamous".

How would that lead to the industry the company works in?

Don't take my comment too seriously. It's a scene from a movie actually.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#200

Post by IshKebab »

incrudible wrote: post #25
IshKebab wrote: post #20

So what was the word?? This is like those articles about photos that don't actually include the photo.

We're looking for a word that is: - highly industry-specific - has two contradictory definitions in some dictionary - possibly identifying a multinational company

The only thing I can think of is "tabling" something, which means to put on the agenda in most places but to remove from the agenda in the US.
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