Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho' • Hacker News Board

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#321

Post by [deleted] » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:26 PM UTC

rhacker wrote: post #291

URSpider94 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

I think the reason they think it's subsidizing the rich enclaves is because they believe the rich enclaves aren't really working - they're just generating revenue from information advantage. We're just building systems of control and making money from it. Compare that to them cleaning out a grain cart or chopping up a 300 pound pig. What is work? And why did I make nearly $300 today vs them who will make $300 for tha…

[deleted]

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#322

Post by kardianos » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:26 PM UTC

mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

The last 30 years in Oregon, Both D's and R's have dis-empowered rural communities (Bill Sizemore comes to mind).

The cultural assumptions present in rural Oregon, Suburban Oregon, and Portland are vast. Go out to Christmas Valley. Go there. Then walk around the Pearl district in Portland.

You're trying to use pure reason. Go get some experience.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#323

Post by why55 » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:27 PM UTC

not2b wrote: post #220

The US constitution requires that, for this to happen, Congress, the Oregon legislature, and the Idaho legislature must all agree. There's no provision that it is a matter that local country residents get to decide.

Time for a constitutional amendment to curb non-consensual government. State and federal government should have a generational opt in.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#324

Post by Alupis » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:27 PM UTC

whoooooo123 wrote: post #244

rsj_hn wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning plastic straws, asserting that men should compete against women in sports if they identify as women, and eliminating SAT scores doesn't seem like a science-driven approach, but more of a faith-based science-denialism.

Genuine question: what's wrong with banning plastic straws? Edit: I know that paper straws are a pain to drink through, my question was more: why is banning plastic straws an example of "faith-based science denialism"?

> Genuine question: what's wrong with banning plastic straws?

The push to ban plastic straws was nearly entirely based on misinformation or lack of information. Most of the debate was propelled to the highest levels by a 4th grader that literally made the data up[1], but that data was used to prescribe a "science and data driven ban".

Turns out, plastic straws really were never a big problem. Sure, single-use-plastic is a problem in general, but the ban of plastic straws has had nearly zero impact on the environment - or it could be argued it's had a negative impact since companies like Starbucks started using "multi-use" recyclable lids which in reality end up being single-use and are often thrown into the trash instead of recycling bin, and use more plastic material than dozens of straws combined.

The plastic bag ban is the same way too... turns out those reusable cotton tote bags consume way more energy to produce than thin plastic bags, causing dramatic increases in GHG releases, energy consumption, etc[2][3]. We now know plastic bags and straws are not a major contributor (or at all, really) to that massive plastic dump in the Pacific Ocean, which is mostly from fishing vessel waste tossed overboard. Good intentions with poor consequences unfortunately.

It's this sort of "theater" that puts people off...

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/business/plastic-straws-b...

[2] https://www.nationalgeographic.org/media/sustainable-shoppin...

[3] https://qz.com/1585027/when-it-comes-to-climate-change-cotto...

[4] https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/great-pacifi...

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#325

Post by _jal » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:28 PM UTC

rhacker wrote: post #291

URSpider94 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

I think the reason they think it's subsidizing the rich enclaves is because they believe the rich enclaves aren't really working - they're just generating revenue from information advantage. We're just building systems of control and making money from it. Compare that to them cleaning out a grain cart or chopping up a 300 pound pig. What is work? And why did I make nearly $300 today vs them who will make $300 for tha…

> Compare that to them cleaning out a grain cart or chopping up a 300 pound pig.

Here is employment data on meat industry workers:

https://www.epi.org/blog/meat-and-poultry-worker-demographic...

Here is ag farming:

http://www.ncfh.org/facts-about-agricultural-workers.html

The people you are holding up as exemplars are not the people who hold the views you're discussing.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#326

Post by Pfhreak » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:28 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #299

Pfhreak wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because America is balanced on a knife's edge, and the Senate and Electoral college basically runs the show. If you introduce a new state that leans blue, that's two more blue senators and N more electoral college votes for a blue president. Republicans will staunchly oppose this. And vice versa. If the senate were proportional to population, and if the electoral college were likewise apportioned via popular vote, th…

It shouldn't be hard to divy up states (granted you might have to cut a state into more than two parts in some cases) in a way that results in no net gain for either party. It's a simple math problem.

But that doesn't solve the problem. If the problem is, "East Oregonians feel disconnected from West Oregonians", I don't think there's a way to split Oregon that results in a net equal number of new representatives and simultaneously addresses the "we're too politically divided" concern.

Yes, you could slice Oregon in half horizontally and maintain the same number of reps, but then you'd have two new states with the East feeling divided. If you split it vertically, then you have the problem of uneven representation.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#327

Post by mensetmanusman » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:29 PM UTC

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #296

rhacker wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own land in a rural area (house coming in maybe a year) and I have spoken to the neighbors. For the most part it's little things actually. Rules that the major cities deal with, like not being allowed to put up a specific kind of fence because the bureaucrats in the city look at .1 acre plots of land and don't like how certain fences look - where out here we're dealing with 5 to 100 acres (and in some cases a 40000…

> One guy had to dismantle a building he erected (he's a builder) because he maxed out on "how much roof" he can have. Please tell me what part of the country this is so I can avoid it.

If I were living in that state, I would build a fractal roof for my dog house that had close to an infinite surface area and then I would sue myself to teach people how dumb that rule is.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#328

Post by samatman » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

joshka wrote: post #126

GongOfFour wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the website for one of the groups pushing for this: https://www.greateridaho.org/ Taxes are just one part of this. They list these other issues of concern: > 1. American Values: Oregon will continue to violate more and more American values and American freedoms because normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon. Not in Idaho. Addicts will be attracted to Oregon from all over the world by the 2020 drug d…

>American Values ... normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones? > 3. Low Tax The counties involved have median household incomes of 30-35K, making their tax burden $600-1100 total, a far cry from the average quoted, which is skewed right strongly by outliers (1%), wh…

> What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones?

America has been here for a long time. It's fair to say that values which are of long standing, still held by a significant fraction of the population, and them disproportionately descended from ancestors who have been American for many generations, are more American values than ones which fail one or more of these criteria.

Note that the value that people who come to America and join the national experiment become American is one of those values! That's unusual, and needs to be pointed out: values aren't more American because they're held by old American stock, causality flows in the other direction.

Not everything is a pure popularity contest. 51% of people supporting strict gun control (for the sake of argument) doesn't make that position more American, it just means more Americans happen to hold to it. That the Constitution makes altering its own text a matter of supermajority, both in passing and ratification, supports the idea that what it is to be American is not intended to simply shift in the winds on the strength of a bare majority.

That all said, the bottom line is that these five counties feel that their values are better represented by the state government of Idaho than by that of Oregon. Federalism is one of those old American values I was droning on about earlier; I don't see why they shouldn't get the chance to secede from a state which isn't serving their needs, and join one which they think would.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#329

Post by icedistilled » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

bsder wrote: post #302

not2b wrote: post #220

The US constitution requires that, for this to happen, Congress, the Oregon legislature, and the Idaho legislature must all agree. There's no provision that it is a matter that local country residents get to decide.

I don't see why Oregon would object unless there is some industry out there that is paying megabucks in taxes. Dumping a bunch of people sucking down more money than they pay seems like a win for Oregon. Idaho, on the other hand, might object. That would be comedy gold. "We secede." "Congratulations! Good luck finding somebody who wants you, though."

It sets a bad precedent. Any county can just vote to break off into another state due to political reasons or to form their own state? Either one party will use that to their advantage and disallow the other party from doing the same, or every state will devolve into fragments. Why stop at counties? Why can't zip codes choose the grouping that best represents them too?

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#330

Post by mensetmanusman » Thu, May 20, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

_-david-_ wrote: post #301

shaftoe wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you notice that you've defined your own viewpoint as rational and supported by data and the viewpoint of others as "probably focused around emotions"?

This is a major issue today. People do not understand why people with different views hold the views they hold. There is an assumption that the other people are not data driven, are just emotional and cling to the way things used to be. I think one reason is the completely different lifestyles held by people. We have some people in urban / suburban areas and some some people in rural. So many people who do not live i…

Exactly this,

One thing that has stuck with me recently was a quote where it basically said that ‘everyone is skeptical, but just about different things’