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Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

bbc.com

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Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#31

Post by [deleted] »

phkahler wrote: post #22
grawprog wrote: post #7

>The message, written in English, was sent by a native speaker to a colleague for whom English was a second language. Unsure of the word, the recipient found two contradictory meanings in his dictionary. He acted on the wrong one. >When such misunderstandings happen, it’s usually the native speakers who are to blame. So...somebody got a message they felt was ambiguous and confused them, didn't ask for clarification b…

>> but it was the person who sent the message originally's fault? That's not what the article said at all. It seemed to place the blame on the word. I'm with you that one person should have sought clarification since they knew there were two meanings, but that's not actually the root cause. Another person may have only been aware of one of those meanings and made the "mistake" without ever thinking they needed clarif…

[deleted]

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#32

Post by hn8788 »

phkahler wrote: post #22
grawprog wrote: post #7

>The message, written in English, was sent by a native speaker to a colleague for whom English was a second language. Unsure of the word, the recipient found two contradictory meanings in his dictionary. He acted on the wrong one. >When such misunderstandings happen, it’s usually the native speakers who are to blame. So...somebody got a message they felt was ambiguous and confused them, didn't ask for clarification b…

>> but it was the person who sent the message originally's fault? That's not what the article said at all. It seemed to place the blame on the word. I'm with you that one person should have sought clarification since they knew there were two meanings, but that's not actually the root cause. Another person may have only been aware of one of those meanings and made the "mistake" without ever thinking they needed clarif…

The article specifically says that native english speakers are to blame, not the word.

> When such misunderstandings happen, it’s usually the native speakers who are to blame. Ironically, they are worse at delivering their message than people who speak English as a second or third language, according to Chong.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#33

Post by MereInterest »

I think the point of avoiding acronyms and abbreviations isn't strong enough, because it doesn't explain how much they can creep into most conversation. As an example, here's how something can become gradually less specific, and gradually shortened. (I have an American Midwest accent, so not all of these shortenings will be applicable to all accents.)

> I'm hungry. Would you like to get lunch and continue discussing this as we eat?

Good clear statement, motivation, question, and proposed action. But there's some repetition. If I'm the one suggesting lunch, it can be assumed that I am hungry, so that doesn't need to be mentioned.

> Would you like to get lunch and continue discussing this as we eat?

Now we add in some cultural context, that people generally eat lunch around noon, and that it is generally a social affair. Asking if somebody wants to get lunch implicitly includes the question of having lunch as a group.

> Would you like to get lunch?

In the same manner, rather than asking about the intended action of "having lunch", one can instead ask about previous actions, with the assumption that somebody will join in on a social activity.

> Have you eaten yet?

Depending on the level of formality, both the choice of words and the level of diction can be chosen to progressively shorten the phrase.

> Did you eat yet?

> Didja eat yet?

> Djeet yet?

The last one, when spoken and in the context of a co-worker asking shortly before noon, is understandable as a social request by a native speaker with a similar accent, even though it's missing over half of the syllables needed to even be grammatically correct.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#34

Post by senthil_rajasek »

shoto_io wrote: post #12
senthil_rajasek wrote: post #5

I grew up in India. I live in the U.S. now. I am a hostage to this situation and I am suffering from Stockholm syndrome.

Try to get an Australian passport. It helps I hear.

Ha ha, I am learning to say mate with every sentence. Thanks Mate.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#35

Post by charlieo88 »

grawprog wrote: post #7

>The message, written in English, was sent by a native speaker to a colleague for whom English was a second language. Unsure of the word, the recipient found two contradictory meanings in his dictionary. He acted on the wrong one. >When such misunderstandings happen, it’s usually the native speakers who are to blame. So...somebody got a message they felt was ambiguous and confused them, didn't ask for clarification b…

Agreed. The article is a fluff piece, using the most generic and sanitized anecdotes. What WORD was not understood? What was the culture of the sender vs receiver? Did I miss where there was any statistical information presented in the article? What other languages/native speakers were reviewed before determining English speakers won the title of world's worst communicators?

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#36

Post by lebuffon »

Two thoughts come to mind.

1. At one time in human history, not long ago, it was mandatory to have some facility in at least a 2nd language to claim you had a higher education. Partial mastery of a 2nd language would help native English speakers "get" what it's like for the non-native people and might help them adjust there speaking style. IMHO we have allowed "higher" education in English speaking countries to devolve in this regard.

2. We might be entering an era where English begins to morph into new dialects as did Latin when it was the "Lingua Franca" of the time. The 2nd language population will overwhelm the native English speakers and so control the language.

( "Lingua Franca" is probably one of those terms that one should not use internationally, unless you are in Italy, Spain, France, Portugal or Romania) :)

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#37

Post by sampo »

pbourke wrote: post #21

> The non-native speakers, it turns out, speak more purposefully and carefully, typical of someone speaking a second or third language. Anglophones, on the other hand, often talk too fast for others to follow, and use jokes, slang and references specific to their own culture, says Chong Isn’t this a description of native vs non-native speakers in many languages?

> Isn’t this a description of native vs non-native speakers in many languages?

I'd venture to guess, that only with English you can find businesses that run in English but native speakers are a minority in the company.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#38

Post by snmx999 »

incrudible wrote: post #14

The gist here is that English needs to be dumbed down and stripped of any cultural references in order to be intelligible to an international business audience. No surprises there. To say that "native English speakers are the world's worst communicators" is quite a bold claim. Personally, I'd give that title to native French speakers.

The statement "native English speakers are the world's worst communicators" is true because of the large number of English speakers in an international context, even when the average "badness" of an English speaker is no worse than of a French speaker.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#39

Post by teekert »

NikolaeVarius wrote: post #8

This is a terrible title and a terrible article. The claims made here are tied to the fact that English is more or less the primary language of international business. Its well known that people who learn secondary languages tend to know the "rules" around the language and tend to be more specific when using secondary languages. Its pretty weird for the article to conflate using slang/abbreviations/language tied to c…

I wonder where you are from, I for one really recognize this. N=1 but my native speaking colleague indeed dominates meetings. Of course personality is also a factor, but she also talks at incredible speeds in fancy ways that are almost hypnotic. It has made her our fall back when talking needs to be done. But in fact I sometimes feel that I should have conveyed a message myself because she gets the point I wanted to make slightly wrong in worrying ways.

On a different note, we always jokingly use Dutch saying in English:

* Stop stabbing the dragon with me!

* Ah there comes the monkey out of the sleeve!

Ah, well, the more cultures, the merrier!

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#40

Post by okareaman »

As an older person who probably needs a hearing aid, I have the most problem with native English speakers not enunciating words. They go fast and run words together or mumble like Noam Chomsky. I have sympathy for ESL people trying to parse it. I always turn on subtitles if available. Also, a Brazilian friend says the don't use much sarcasm, so it gets difficult understand when English speakers use it so much to mean the opposite of what they say.
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