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UK Rail services to come under unified state control

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141–150 of 383 posts

Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control

#141
post #123
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tracks are certainly very valuable infrastructure, it's just hard to monetize (and very expensive to build, as you say). So in a way it makes sense for the government to handle it.

The way to monetize is property development and rent around stations. That's how it works in Japan, where private companies sell tickets at a loss and still make profits. In the UK that land got sold off to private equity and the like who are making the real dough while they funnel some of that into donations to the Tory party.

> The way to monetize is property development and rent around stations. That's how it works in Japan, where private companies sell tickets at a loss and still make profits.

Yes. It's just really hard to do afterwards - having the government expropriate land around the stations and giving it to the railway companies is guaranteed to be wildly expensive and unpopular.

Japan's private passenger railways IIRC make about 50% of their income from ticket sales, the rest comes from leveraging the (very!) high value land around the stations. Many other metropolitan rail systems also get about 50% of the income from tickets, but since the railways don't own the land they have to get the rest through some form of government subsidy.

I think some of the problems with the British privatized rail system is how fragmented it is, with nobody responsible for the whole. And there's lots of government meddling in every interface between all these myriad private companies, providing ample opportunity for corruption and massively misaligned incentives. I suspect it would be better to either nationalize the whole lot under one roof, or then go back to the old pre-nationalization type regional monopolies with a single company owning tracks, trains, stations as well as operating them (a bit like the privatized Japanese railways).

Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control

#142
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not. I have a choice on the WCML of multiple different providers. Manchester to London walk up far for almost any time can be £300 return for the fast train arriving in london before lunch and getting home before 9pm, or £50 for a slower train with a change. Same with crewe-Manchester, Birmingham-london, Edinburgh-london etc. Quite happy with the competition and no government interference.

You're saying there's clearly plenty of competition when a flight from London to New York can be had for the price of a fairly normal rail ticket from London to Manchester? Those £50 tickets are about market segmentation - separating the customers who have time flexibility or are willing to suffer from those who don't or aren't.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Rail is as expensive as a plane ticket that goes much further because the railways have far more limited capacity than the skies do. It's not related to competition or lack of it - those rails just cannot safely take more vehicles.

Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control

#143
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tracks are certainly very valuable infrastructure, it's just hard to monetize (and very expensive to build, as you say). So in a way it makes sense for the government to handle it.

Track is what defines the railway, maximum speed, 85% of maintenance cost, etc. UK tried to privatise it, but the firm collapsed and had to be nationalised. What do private companies add, if on a good day they earn the profit and on a bad day tax payer picks up the tab.

> Track is what defines the railway, maximum speed, 85% of maintenance cost, etc.

> UK tried to privatise it, but the firm collapsed and had to be nationalised.

Yes, absolutely.

> What do private companies add, if on a good day they earn the profit and on a bad day tax payer picks up the tab.

I think the best way to run a railway is to either completely nationalize it all under one roof, or then have it completely privatized, with a single company being responsible for everything. Yes, this would create regional rail monopolies, but OTOH they wouldn't be completely free to extract monopoly prices since there's still competition from other modes of transport (cars, airplanes, buses, trucks).

The current UK system with a myriad public and private entities with very complicated contractual relationships is just a mess. Unfortunately it seems the EU is hellbent on imposing the same model across the EU.

Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control

#144
post #64
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also this is less nationalised than ScotRail, which will actually be state run: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-564...

Can they still do that, now that the ScotRail franchise is (presumably) no more?

The ScotRail brand was operated by the private company Abellio, who lost the contract due to long term failure to meet its requirements of reliability etc - was in trouble before the impact of the pandemic.

Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control

#145
post #123
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tracks are certainly very valuable infrastructure, it's just hard to monetize (and very expensive to build, as you say). So in a way it makes sense for the government to handle it.

The way to monetize is property development and rent around stations. That's how it works in Japan, where private companies sell tickets at a loss and still make profits. In the UK that land got sold off to private equity and the like who are making the real dough while they funnel some of that into donations to the Tory party.

Yes in the Netherlands the railway operator makes a lot of money from their train stations as well.

A train station in 2021 is basically a big shopping mall in a prime location with massive foot traffic.

Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control

#146
Maybe this will remove the need for adjudicating between the companies currently involved - from the White Paper:

"Previous adjudications include, among other things, who was responsible for a train being so crowded that a passenger fainted, causing delays while they were taken off; and whether a pheasant is a small bird (in which case, according to the principles at the time, the train operator was to blame for a delay caused by hitting one) or a large bird (Network Rail's problem)."

Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control

#147
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry to say, but these plans still see routes being operated by private companies awarded multiyear contracts...

Perhaps, but: > The government says the new system should look more like Transport for London, with multiple operators under one brand, offering greater accountability when things go wrong. If it introduces more accountability, it's basically doing it's job. Multiyear contracts do not mean no accountability. I'm not a regular passenger but my understanding is that reliability of current service is generally poor with…

> "I'm not a regular passenger but my understanding is that reliability of current service is generally poor with little to no recourse."

In my experience, the UK rail system has been running fantastically since Covid began! I don't think I can remember even a single delayed train since March 2020 and certainly no overcrowded ones. So it seems like the real problem with the trains was always the passengers ;)

Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control

#148
post #48

Hurrah! Even as a free market conservative I've long been in favour of this: bidding for the multi-year contract to operate a line is a poor proxy for (impossible) proper competition where rail users could vote with their feet and wallets. There's effectively only one operator anyway, for a given journey, it should be the state, awarding the multi-year contract to the elected government is strictly better than to a p…

The undiscussed upside of this "privatisation pantomime" is that government's are committed to making it work. That means it gets investments and bailouts. Compare that to publicly owned services who get nothing.

The real question here isn't who owns X, it's will the government invest in X...

Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately this isn't actual nationalisation. The railway will still be operated by private firms, this is only a transfer of franchising from the department of transport to this new "Great British Railways" department; which is a new franchising model. It's supposed to allow them to set unified fees, and have greater control over branding and speak with a unified voice, but apart from that I don't see any of the…

High fares (and they aren't that high) aren't a result of privatization; they're because of a lack of subsidy. In the UK, despite the obvious environmental benefits, subsidizing rail is politically awkward because it's regressive.

They are high.

I had to get from the West, to London, and then to the north last week.

Wiltshire to London: ~100miles, £24 London to Derbyshire: ~120miles, £158

I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt about peak times, but I started my journey at 10:30am. The prices make no sense; unless viewed through the private entities ability to gouge.

Whenever I'm in Europe and buy a ticket I spend an extra 20secs at the ticket machine thinking I've made a currency conversion badly before realising, no, European trains are great value and UK trains are an exercise in exploiting a captive market.

Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control

#150
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not. I have a choice on the WCML of multiple different providers. Manchester to London walk up far for almost any time can be £300 return for the fast train arriving in london before lunch and getting home before 9pm, or £50 for a slower train with a change. Same with crewe-Manchester, Birmingham-london, Edinburgh-london etc. Quite happy with the competition and no government interference.

You're saying there's clearly plenty of competition when a flight from London to New York can be had for the price of a fairly normal rail ticket from London to Manchester? Those £50 tickets are about market segmentation - separating the customers who have time flexibility or are willing to suffer from those who don't or aren't.

That £300 return subsidizes train services in rural parts of cornwall. That's a political decision. Other options are to have more taxpayer subsidy, higher prices in Cornwall, close services in cornwall, or reduce operating costs (which are heavily staff and rolling stock based -- something that HS2 will slash)

P.S. I just looked up an equivalent London-New York economy flight (flexible flight leaving this evening and returning tomorrow), and it's £2,481.02

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