The Unparalleled Genius of John von Neumann • Hacker News Board

Re: The Unparalleled Genius of John von Neumann

#51

Post by spacechild1 » Wed, May 19, 2021, 2:14 PM UTC

voldacar wrote: post #34

spacechild1 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let uber geniuses run the nation's courts, monetary policy, tax laws, environmental protection programs, and defense planning and acquisition. You might want to read up on his political views in general and his role in the creation of the atomic bomb in particular. He wanted to drop the bomb on Kyoto (the historical cultural center of Japan) and actively supported a preventive nuclear strike against Russia. What's…

You are assuming the point you are trying to prove: that von Neumann was unjustified in advocating for these things. Maybe he was just smarter than you (and me) and just had a really good argument for believing those things, given the state of the world at the time and his various priors. Also, humans have created thousands of different and highly contradictory systems of morality over the past several thousand years…

At least in hindsight I can say with confidence that John von Neumann was wrong in this matter. Or do you really think things could have turned out better if the US had began a nuclear war?

Re: The Unparalleled Genius of John von Neumann

#52

Post by paulpauper » Wed, May 19, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #41

abnry wrote: post #28

Great people are warranted discussion, but as someone who was once in the academic math world, I had to quit reading after a few sentences. Genius is a very real thing, but I don't need to read adulation after adulation in a series of anecdotes and quotes that will only make me feel inadequate. The mathematics itself is greater than the mathematician, who himself craps on the toilet like anyone else. Focus on the mat…

"Focus on the math, not the mathematician." Do you think von Neumann's education might have had anything to do with what he was able to achieve? How about how he was raised by his parents? Or how about his work ethic, motivation, and attitude towards discovery? How about the people that he admired and that influenced him? Learning these things might help us to raise future extraordinary achievers, or might even help…

99.9% genes in his case. Look how hard parents push their kids these days, yet few even come close to his genius.

Re: The Unparalleled Genius of John von Neumann

#53

Post by paulpauper » Wed, May 19, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

abnry wrote: post #28

Great people are warranted discussion, but as someone who was once in the academic math world, I had to quit reading after a few sentences. Genius is a very real thing, but I don't need to read adulation after adulation in a series of anecdotes and quotes that will only make me feel inadequate. The mathematics itself is greater than the mathematician, who himself craps on the toilet like anyone else. Focus on the mat…

>The mathematics itself is greater than the mathematician, who himself craps on the toilet like anyone else. Focus on the math, not the mathematician. It will make you happier.

The mathematician reveals the math. The math won't reveal itself

Re: The Unparalleled Genius of John von Neumann

#54

Post by paulpauper » Wed, May 19, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #33

abnry wrote: post #28

Great people are warranted discussion, but as someone who was once in the academic math world, I had to quit reading after a few sentences. Genius is a very real thing, but I don't need to read adulation after adulation in a series of anecdotes and quotes that will only make me feel inadequate. The mathematics itself is greater than the mathematician, who himself craps on the toilet like anyone else. Focus on the mat…

> Focus on the math, not the mathematician. It will make you happier. Personally I don't feel inadequate when reading about someone like von Neumann, as I'm not really tempted to compare myself to him in the first place. Colleagues are peers, people I graduated with are peers, but von Neumann is almost like another species. I forget who it was who pointed out that Silicon Valley billionaires tend to dress like 'norma…

The queen does not have much personal money anyway. it belongs to the family.

I think it is understandable to feel inadequate. that is motivation to be better.

Re: The Unparalleled Genius of John von Neumann

#55

Post by meroes » Wed, May 19, 2021, 2:24 PM UTC

DalasNoin wrote: post #35

meroes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary: "Many generations of graduate students who might have been tempted to try to construct hidden-variables theories were beaten into submission by the claim that von Neumann, 1932, had proved that it could not be done. A few years later (see Jammer, 1974,p.273) Grete Hermann, 1935, pointed out a glaring deficiency in the argument, but she seems to have been entirely ignored. Everybody continued to cite…

Interesting citation, I had heard of John Bell's theorem, which disproves local hidden variable theories. But I did not know that von Neumann had his own attempt at disproving these theories. Researching this a little further, I also found people arguing that von Neumanns arguments were misconstrued by Bell. https://arxiv.org/abs/1006.0499 I wonder how Grete Hermann's arguments compare to the arguments from Bell and…

Ya I am not an expert to judge if Bell, Grete, and Mermin also misunderstood von Neumman, and I see a few papers argue that. But the larger physics community does seem to agree with Bell's take. I do find it a bit weird that paper is using an entire page of what von Neumman would have said in response.

Re: The Unparalleled Genius of John von Neumann

#56

Post by voldacar » Wed, May 19, 2021, 2:25 PM UTC

spacechild1 wrote: post #51

voldacar wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are assuming the point you are trying to prove: that von Neumann was unjustified in advocating for these things. Maybe he was just smarter than you (and me) and just had a really good argument for believing those things, given the state of the world at the time and his various priors. Also, humans have created thousands of different and highly contradictory systems of morality over the past several thousand years…

At least in hindsight I can say with confidence that John von Neumann was wrong in this matter. Or do you really think things could have turned out better if the US had began a nuclear war?

It is one thing to say that in hindsight he held a wrong belief, and another thing entirely (especially without knowing his exact arguments and priors) to say that he held a wrong belief at the time and was not only wrong, but also therefore morally defective.

Re: The Unparalleled Genius of John von Neumann

#57

Post by MaxBarraclough » Wed, May 19, 2021, 2:27 PM UTC

paulpauper wrote: post #54

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Focus on the math, not the mathematician. It will make you happier. Personally I don't feel inadequate when reading about someone like von Neumann, as I'm not really tempted to compare myself to him in the first place. Colleagues are peers, people I graduated with are peers, but von Neumann is almost like another species. I forget who it was who pointed out that Silicon Valley billionaires tend to dress like 'norma…

The queen does not have much personal money anyway. it belongs to the family. I think it is understandable to feel inadequate. that is motivation to be better.

> I think it is understandable to feel inadequate. that is motivation to be better.

I don't see the sense in this. No amount of work would turn the average mind into the next von Neumann.

Re: The Unparalleled Genius of John von Neumann

#58

Post by MikeUt » Wed, May 19, 2021, 2:27 PM UTC

flaubere wrote: post #44

MikeUt wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gould is known for placing ideology ahead of science, so it's refreshing that he admits as much. Stephen F. Blinkhorn, a senior lecturer in psychology at the University of Hertfordshire, wrote that The Mismeasure of Man was "a masterpiece of propaganda" that selectively juxtaposed data to further a political agenda. [..] Jensen also criticized Gould for concentrating on long-disproven arguments (noting that 71% of th…

Gould wrote a controversial book attacking whole swathes of science done in the past. The existence of a senior lecturer at the University of Hertfordshire who has written a criticism of it doesn't seem that surprising and certainly doesn't seem sufficient evidence that we should disregard what he has to say.

> certainly doesn't seem sufficient evidence that we should disregard what he has to say.

No, we should disregard what he has to say because even his arguments against the century-old studies he attacks (while carefully avoiding modern work) were shown to be faulty. It's like (poorly) debunking phlogiston in the modern day, and expecting to be taken seriously.

Re: The Unparalleled Genius of John von Neumann

#59

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 19, 2021, 2:29 PM UTC

JetSetWilly wrote: post #18

> In fact, von Neumann claimed to do some of his best work in noisy, chaotic environments such as in the living room of his house with the television blaring. I often think of this when people claim it is impossible to conceive of any advanced thought in an open office or noisy environment. In fact, it is just a personal preference and one environment isn't necessarily any better than another.

[deleted]

Re: The Unparalleled Genius of John von Neumann

#60

Post by paulpauper » Wed, May 19, 2021, 2:29 PM UTC

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #57

paulpauper wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The queen does not have much personal money anyway. it belongs to the family. I think it is understandable to feel inadequate. that is motivation to be better.

> I think it is understandable to feel inadequate. that is motivation to be better. I don't see the sense in this. No amount of work would turn the average mind into the next von Neumann.

being better does mean being a copy of the guy