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Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

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Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#341

Post by jfengel »

jvanderbot wrote: post #320
SigmundA wrote: post #117

This is at 66.9 km/h (40 mph) in order to greatly increase its range due to lower drag compared to normal highway speeds. As a comparison a Tesla Model 3 got 975km (606 miles) at 40 km/h (25 mph) [1]. I can't seem to find any range tests at a similar speed as the Nexo. I found an EPA dyno test for the Model 3 at 77 km/h (48mph) for 708 km (440 miles). The Nexo and Model 3 have similar dimension and weight and price,…

The one thing H has going is quicker fills at the pump, right? Being low on joules is a pain when you're going to work in the morning, but it's a royal pain if you have to wait a half hour to charge.

At least you get a half hour to think about how you should have plugged it in last night.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#342

Post by nick_kline »

SigmundA wrote: post #286
emptyfile wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no clue about batteries or hydrogen tanks. But I'm always amused to think that posters on HN give more credence to their back-of-the-napkin calculations over opinions of, say, folks at Toshiba, Volvo or Daimler.

Yes I always like to do my own math it has sniffed out the BS many a time from the likes of Tesla, Nikola and so on. Not always right, but amazing how many times theirs is wrong especially if marketing something. You should alway try to understand the math / science and make your own judgements rather to falling for arguments from authority. This isn't always feasible but I think most people can do enough to weed out…

Do you see Tesla as a snakeoil company today when it comes to their batteries, drivetrain, range, reliability? I wouldn't put Nikola and Tesla in the same categories. Tesla has one serious issue imho that they can only fix with refunds of the cost, that their auto-driving cars probably won't get there in the next 5+ years, so all the people that paid up to 10k for that will have to get some compensation.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#343

Post by robertlagrant »

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #244
SigmundA wrote: post #117

This is at 66.9 km/h (40 mph) in order to greatly increase its range due to lower drag compared to normal highway speeds. As a comparison a Tesla Model 3 got 975km (606 miles) at 40 km/h (25 mph) [1]. I can't seem to find any range tests at a similar speed as the Nexo. I found an EPA dyno test for the Model 3 at 77 km/h (48mph) for 708 km (440 miles). The Nexo and Model 3 have similar dimension and weight and price,…

>It doesn't seem like current fuels cell have much of a energy density / range advantage even though hydrogen itself is much more energy dense, the fuel cell weight and efficiency and high pressure liquid hydrogen tanks must be accounted for. Hydrogen has a better gravimetric scaling than batteries - as stored energy increases, the fixed weight of the fuel cell is amortised over more energy and the weight of high pre…

> So for applications where you want to store a lot of energy and are weight but not volume limited, hydrogen might make enough sense to pay the efficiency penalty required to turn electricity into hydrogen and back again.

It's also not inconceivable that if we have more base load power generation (e.g. through more nuclear) then we could generate hydrogen at night with the excess.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#344

Post by DeRock »

grogenaut wrote: post #241
_ph_ wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beyond the missing expensive infrastructure, the big problem is energy efficiency. Moving forward, we have to switch every energy production to renewables. But for the same amount of electric energy produced, an electric car gets about 3x the mileage than producing "green" hydrogen and powering fuel cell cars with it. Hydrogen means at least 3x the electricity cost and for many years to come, we are going to struggle…

I enjoy how you are taking all of the arguments people used against BEVs in favor of gas and using them against HV. The irony is strong in these threads.

BEVs are much more energy efficient than ICE. When was the argument that they are not ever used?

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#345

Post by Tarsul »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #326
NikolaNovak wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gack... one of my pet peeves: 90% of my friends compare car millage in terms of "how much money I spend to refuel", completely ignoring: 1. Significantly different tank sizes - 53L to 70L on regular cars. 2. Different prices of gas (suburbs vs downtown, 87 vs 91 octane, etc) 3. Different habits - some refuel at 1/3 left, 1/4 left, 50km left, yellow light on, needle at the end of the gauge, etc It drives me absolutely…

... It's fascinating reading the comments here and other places that go between "that's crazy never heard of it couldn't imagine you're making it up" and "yup seen it / do it too" :-D But basically for many of my non-science-major friends, it's money per tank or at best kilometers per refueling. Re another (for some reason dead?) comment, there may indeed be a correlation between cash flow and tendency to use "money…

he, this reminds me of a recent interview with Daniel Kahneman (of behavioral science nobel fame) where he closes with saying he works on the "how the inability to solve the famous “bat and ball problem” [bat and ball cost 1,10 together, the bat costs 1 dollar more than the ball, how much do they cost each?] correlates with belief in God and that 9/11 was a conspiracy." https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/may/16/daniel-kahnema...

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#346

Post by SigmundA »

nick_kline wrote: post #342
SigmundA wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I always like to do my own math it has sniffed out the BS many a time from the likes of Tesla, Nikola and so on. Not always right, but amazing how many times theirs is wrong especially if marketing something. You should alway try to understand the math / science and make your own judgements rather to falling for arguments from authority. This isn't always feasible but I think most people can do enough to weed out…

Do you see Tesla as a snakeoil company today when it comes to their batteries, drivetrain, range, reliability? I wouldn't put Nikola and Tesla in the same categories. Tesla has one serious issue imho that they can only fix with refunds of the cost, that their auto-driving cars probably won't get there in the next 5+ years, so all the people that paid up to 10k for that will have to get some compensation.

No I don't however I was much more skeptical of them in the past and also the math still lets me know Elon's timelines are lets say "optimistic", however the math also told me they where not completely full of it vs Nikola which is a complete sham.

For instance the Semi being announced in 2017 I said no way, but their range numbers where not outlandish, they just conveniently left off weight numbers for the tractor and cost of the battery seemed to high at the time. What I missed was how quickly battery cost are coming down and energy density going up, however they still haven't delivered a tractor yet so...

Tesla has a real tech lead, not sure if they can keep it and they are way over valued stock wise.

Nikola complete BS.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#347

Post by donaldcuckman »

SigmundA wrote: post #304
bjourne wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is at 66.9 km/h (40 mph) in order to greatly increase its range due to lower drag compared to normal highway speeds. > As a comparison a Tesla Model 3 got 975km (606 miles) at 40 km/h (25 mph) [1]. I can't seem to find any range tests at a similar speed as the Nexo. > It doesn't seem like current fuels cell have much of a energy density / range advantage even though hydrogen itself is much more energy dense, t…

Drag isn't the only thing in play. They both are driving below highway speeds, one more so than the other, I wish there was some data for a Tesla at 40 mph vs 25 or 48 to compare more directly the difference. The Tesla will have between 975 and 708km range at 40 mph the NEXO is 887km, I will make an assumption the Tesla is less, but how much less, is it "much" different? What is the energy density delta between a HFC…

drag really is just about the only thing at play

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#348

Post by oh_sigh »

jvanderbot wrote: post #320
SigmundA wrote: post #117

This is at 66.9 km/h (40 mph) in order to greatly increase its range due to lower drag compared to normal highway speeds. As a comparison a Tesla Model 3 got 975km (606 miles) at 40 km/h (25 mph) [1]. I can't seem to find any range tests at a similar speed as the Nexo. I found an EPA dyno test for the Model 3 at 77 km/h (48mph) for 708 km (440 miles). The Nexo and Model 3 have similar dimension and weight and price,…

The one thing H has going is quicker fills at the pump, right? Being low on joules is a pain when you're going to work in the morning, but it's a royal pain if you have to wait a half hour to charge.

30 mins at a supercharger is hundreds of miles of range...that's quite the commute. But if you're at home - yes, I guess not having any charge is an inconvenience in the morning, but so is not having any gas or hydrogen. Neither should happen if you are even remotely responsible and on top of your life.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#349

Post by [deleted] »

bjourne wrote: post #293
SigmundA wrote: post #117

This is at 66.9 km/h (40 mph) in order to greatly increase its range due to lower drag compared to normal highway speeds. As a comparison a Tesla Model 3 got 975km (606 miles) at 40 km/h (25 mph) [1]. I can't seem to find any range tests at a similar speed as the Nexo. I found an EPA dyno test for the Model 3 at 77 km/h (48mph) for 708 km (440 miles). The Nexo and Model 3 have similar dimension and weight and price,…

> This is at 66.9 km/h (40 mph) in order to greatly increase its range due to lower drag compared to normal highway speeds. > As a comparison a Tesla Model 3 got 975km (606 miles) at 40 km/h (25 mph) [1]. I can't seem to find any range tests at a similar speed as the Nexo. > It doesn't seem like current fuels cell have much of a energy density / range advantage even though hydrogen itself is much more energy dense, t…

[deleted]

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#350

Post by bombcar »

emptyfile wrote: post #277
SigmundA wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lithium batteries still seem to have a way to go in energy density currently at around 250-300 wh/kg and going up year over year with a theoretical maximum (Sulfur cathode) of above 2500 wh/kg. At around 2000 wh/kg you are equivalent to diesel drivetrain energy density both size and weight based on my rough math. Expensive large hydrogen tanks in a trailer with high pressure lines to tractor seems like it would cause…

I have no clue about batteries or hydrogen tanks. But I'm always amused to think that posters on HN give more credence to their back-of-the-napkin calculations over opinions of, say, folks at Toshiba, Volvo or Daimler.

The companies are not entirely worried about the total results as they have other aspects to deal with (in fact, you'll sometimes find companies doing things they personally think are silly because "everyone" in the industry is doing it, and they need to be able to check off the box for the Board - example: "Why aren't we doing anything with this blockchain stuff").

They also have large resources and are willing to experiment in things (especially if there are incentives around it from government, etc) - and even if it fails entirely they'll likely get useful and actionable data and results that still can help the company.

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