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Fierce Nerds

paulgraham.com

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Re: Fierce Nerds

#301

Post by mhh__ »

hardwaregeek wrote: post #167

Surprisingly, I'd argue that athletes are an example of fierce nerds. I think people vastly underestimate how nerdy top athletes are. They're people willing to devote their entire lives to obsessively analyzing a single game. Somebody like Jordan had to spend hours, days, years of their life just constantly shooting a ball at a basket. Not to mention the obsession with meta and strategy. We like to see people like Jo…

One of the traits of top footballers in the modern game is that their teammates are pretty much - and keep in mind these are already some of the best players in the world by a long way - in disbelief of how hard and how efficiently they train. That's how Cristiano Ronaldo is as good as he is at an age when many have already retired.

Re: Fierce Nerds

#302

Post by mchanson »

slibhb wrote: post #196
zozbot234 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anyone who isn't currently on Twitter, AGM is the guy who publicly called Bay Area women "soft, weak and full of $#!+" and was recently canned from a management role at Apple when people pointed out that his performance assessments of subordinates might not be free from bias. Sucks to be him of course, but what's the alternative?

He wrote a gonzo book full of insensitive over-the-top passages, like the one you're referencing, in order to sell books. It worked. He created a literary persona that people loved or loved to hate. It's a huge leap to go from "you wrote x passage" to "you may be biased against women". If you want to fire someone for bias, you need evidence of bias, not a theory that someone might be biased.

You don't actually "need evidence of bias". You can let someone go if they are not an asset to the company. This guy certainly wasn't once the amount of annoyance and upset his words had caused others in the company was pointed out to management.

Re: Fierce Nerds

#303

Post by mhh__ »

carapace wrote: post #73

To young "fierce nerds": The single best piece of advice I got for dealing with normals was, "Act like a dumbass and they'll treat you like an equal." (from the Book of the Subgenius.) - - - - There's a lot to unpack in this essay, some good some bad IMO. One thing I feel is worth mentioning: I don't think the cure for bitterness is success, I believe it's helping others .

Also don't call them normals.

Re: Fierce Nerds

#304

Post by CoastalCoder »

Permit wrote: post #194
CoastalCoder wrote: post #7

Nobody who knows me would call me "woke", except as part of some joke. But as the father of a kid with Asperger Syndrome, and as someone with a likely diagnosis myself (according to neuropysch testing), I'm a little bothered by the broad brush with which P.G. is painting.

> But as the father of a kid with Asperger Syndrome, and as someone with a likely diagnosis myself (according to neuropysch testing), It's not immediately obvious to me how this relates to the article. Can you elaborate? Is "fierce nerd" a reference to Aspergers?

I apologize, I realized too late that it wasn't PG's article that mentioned Asperger, it was another HN comment.

Re: Fierce Nerds

#305

Post by wutbrodo »

albatruss wrote: post #11

If you're going to be this sort of fierce nerd, make sure you come from money, because you're getting fired if you pursue these traits in the workplace.

FWIW, this isn't my experience at all. There's a difference between being an asshole and the contrarian bent+ relatively-minor rough edges Graham describes. The essay touches on this, by saying that it's become a lot easier to thrive as this sort of person than it used to be. In particular, you need to find your way to a field and role where results matter more than glad-handing and ego-stroking, and where the subjectivity and discretion of measuring those results is minimized. This used to be vanishingly rare, but in my perception (and experience), it no longer is.

In my case, my fatal flaw career-wise wasn't abrasiveness or asshole-ish behavior, but a strong aversion to promoting my work or any of the other non-goal tasks required to advance in an organization. I hate every minute I have to spend making it clear that I'm productive instead of just _being_ productive.

However, this is almost unavoidable in most organizations that aren't tiny. You either have to "manage your brand" and play politics, or you have to make sure that you're fitting a squishy, inherently-subjective rubric. At a bare minimum, you need to craft a presentation of your output at performance review time, and hope your interpretation of the rubric matches the decision-makers'.

My solution was to find a company with fairly objective and well-defined measures of output[1], where there's more than enough impact to go around. You can't avoid having people skills to get things done, but I don't mind using my people skills in service of getting shit done instead of internal organizational BS.

[1] This does not mean that we're tolerant of assholes. We've fired people for being pathological "brilliant jerks", though everyone I've come into close personal contact with is well above the jerk bar. What this does is separate "are you toxic in a way that hurts your coworkers or the company" from "what is your output", allowing people who are awkward and well-intentioned to thrive on one axis and grow on the other. This is in contrast to the usual case, where measuring output is polluted by interpersonal skills that are not related to output, and being awkward means your work isn't recognized either.

Re: Fierce Nerds

#306

Post by systemvoltage »

wiggumspiggums wrote: post #278

"Will you be clever at the expense of others, or will you be kind?" -Jeff Bezos https://www.princeton.edu/news/2010/05/30/2010-baccalaureate... "Fierce nerds" can be valuable. Sure. But the folks who truly stand out in my mind are a level higher. They're the ones at the top of their game, who know how to demand & command excellence, without being jerks about it. I'm reminded of this episode of "The Chef Show" where J…

I find this ironic coming out of Jeff Bezos. There are plenty of examples of people that are exactly opposite of what you describe as. Steve Jobs - massive jerk, but demanded and commanded excellence. I don't personally condone this type of personalities but they exist. Linus Torvalds is another example. There is much more to it.

Re: Fierce Nerds

#307

Post by mhh__ »

username90 wrote: post #279
carapace wrote: post #73

To young "fierce nerds": The single best piece of advice I got for dealing with normals was, "Act like a dumbass and they'll treat you like an equal." (from the Book of the Subgenius.) - - - - There's a lot to unpack in this essay, some good some bad IMO. One thing I feel is worth mentioning: I don't think the cure for bitterness is success, I believe it's helping others .

Trying to help others just makes you more bitter.

It might do for you, and I'd say it does for me a little too (i.e. If I get the answer in less than one google search I need to take a breather because I'll get annoyed), but I have come across people who are just as clever/nerdy/knowledgeable (take your pick) who really derive pleasure from teaching and explaining things in the best way they can - so I wouldn't assume.

Re: Fierce Nerds

#308

Post by yupper32 »

wiggumspiggums wrote: post #278

"Will you be clever at the expense of others, or will you be kind?" -Jeff Bezos https://www.princeton.edu/news/2010/05/30/2010-baccalaureate... "Fierce nerds" can be valuable. Sure. But the folks who truly stand out in my mind are a level higher. They're the ones at the top of their game, who know how to demand & command excellence, without being jerks about it. I'm reminded of this episode of "The Chef Show" where J…

> He tells Bill Burr that he had followed Roy around for a full day, going to all his restaurants and food trucks, and not once did Roy raise his voice to his staff.

Sorry what are you trying to say here? It's admirable or difficult not to yell at your employees?

Re: Fierce Nerds

#309

Post by klinskyc »

yupper32 wrote: post #308
wiggumspiggums wrote: post #278

"Will you be clever at the expense of others, or will you be kind?" -Jeff Bezos https://www.princeton.edu/news/2010/05/30/2010-baccalaureate... "Fierce nerds" can be valuable. Sure. But the folks who truly stand out in my mind are a level higher. They're the ones at the top of their game, who know how to demand & command excellence, without being jerks about it. I'm reminded of this episode of "The Chef Show" where J…

> He tells Bill Burr that he had followed Roy around for a full day, going to all his restaurants and food trucks, and not once did Roy raise his voice to his staff. Sorry what are you trying to say here? It's admirable or difficult not to yell at your employees?

Chefs/Kitchens are stereotypically full of yelling, and (otherwise) well-regarded chefs definitely live up to that - https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/05/dining/restaurant-workers...
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