Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Fierce Nerds

paulgraham.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 482 posts

Re: Fierce Nerds

#81

Post by mcguire »

xondono wrote: post #52
MyHypatia wrote: post #20

I met a lot of nerds in graduate school. In my experience the "fierce" nerds weren't smarter or successful than the "nonfierce" nerds. The fierce nerds were just more insecure and emotionally immature. They felt more threatened by being surrounded by other people who might smarter or more successful than them. It threatened their identity of being uniquely intelligent. They responded by lashing out. It may be that th…

Maybe it’s me, but I think “fierce” has thrown a lot of people off. I would classify what you are describing as what PG terms “the bitter nerds”, not necessarily “fierce”.

As Graham says, the difference between fierce and bitter is success. And given that, in a very competitive environment, the difference between success and failure is largely luck...

Re: Fierce Nerds

#82

Post by dragonwriter »

miobrien wrote: post #36

It's weird to read an "essay" about "nerds" from a 56 year old. It's like he never got over the high school caste system of cliques.

> It's weird to read an "essay" about "nerds" from a 56 year old. It's like he never got over the high school caste system of cliques.

“Nerds” being a meaningful category isn’t an idea limited to high-school caste/cliques, especially in tech; one of the reasons software flipped from being predominantly female to predominantly male is the popularization of the idea (IIRC, in the late 1960s or early 1970s) that stereotypical nerds (socially maladapted, querulous, technophilic males) were the optimal workers in the field.

The idea, which best as I know was only grounded in thin popular management quasi-science, has become increasingly less popular in the last few decades.

It is weird, though, that Graham’s affected contrarianism requires him to pretend that fierceness as opposed to diffidence is contrary to the popular stereotype, nerds lacking the skills to manage/moderate conflict manifesting in both conflict avoidance where they are uncomfortable and fierce, intractable, often petty conflict within their comfort zone has always been central to the stereotype.

Re: Fierce Nerds

#83

Post by commandlinefan »

javajosh wrote: post #31

The first rush of comments are all negative, mostly of the ad hominem sort, accusing PG of publicly psychoanalyzing himself. And yet, I really liked the essay because it reads like a lifeline to those who doubt themselves, perhaps profoundly. To PG the same qualities that alienate a "fierce nerd" in so many contexts are precisely the same qualities that could lead to success (even dominance) in other contexts. The us…

> The first rush of comments are all negative, mostly of the ad hominem sort

Happens on every PG post.

Re: Fierce Nerds

#84

Post by zozbot234 »

shalmanese wrote: post #79

PG gets dunked on on Twitter for defending Antonio Garcia Martinez but he knows he's right even though everyone is making fun of him so his natural defense mechanism is to go back and create an elaborate framework to prove he's right and it's just that nobody else can see he's right. You see, AGM isn't a misanthrope misogynist, he's fierce! He says the things everyone else is afraid to say and thinks the things every…

For anyone who isn't currently on Twitter, AGM is the guy who publicly called Bay Area women "soft, weak and full of $#!+" and was recently canned from a management role at Apple when people pointed out that his performance assessments of subordinates might not be free from bias. Sucks to be him of course, but what's the alternative?

Re: Fierce Nerds

#85

Post by GavinMcG »

Bukhmanizer wrote: post #75
javajosh wrote: post #31

The first rush of comments are all negative, mostly of the ad hominem sort, accusing PG of publicly psychoanalyzing himself. And yet, I really liked the essay because it reads like a lifeline to those who doubt themselves, perhaps profoundly. To PG the same qualities that alienate a "fierce nerd" in so many contexts are precisely the same qualities that could lead to success (even dominance) in other contexts. The us…

> And yet, I really liked the essay because it reads like a lifeline to those who doubt themselves, perhaps profoundly Do they? I mean one of the define characteristics is an overconfidence in themselves. I think PG is trying to justify some kind of assholish behaviour in his past by reframing it as a virtue. Really, I think the “fierceness” is incidental. Do immensely successful people need to be somewhat competitiv…

Overconfidence and self-doubt can go hand-in-hand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulnerable_narcissism

Re: Fierce Nerds

#86

Post by femiagbabiaka »

Very good. One thing I’m surprised wasn’t mentioned (or at least I didn’t catch on the first read) — IMO, on average, this kind of person will have much better experiences on the bitterness to invigoration spectrum at startups vs. bigco.

Re: Fierce Nerds

#87

Post by mcguire »

strict9 wrote: post #12

With descriptions of social clumsiness, being independent minded, and difficulty navigating two-way communication (when to start/stop) pg's depiction of "nerds" resonates because these traits are frequently associated with asd. But what surprised me is that instead of washing away negative traits as part of the package, two options for the "fierce nerd" are presented: 1. use power for good 2. be cynical and embrace b…

Can you point me to where "for good" is mentioned in the essay? The only end goal I remember is getting wealthy.

Re: Fierce Nerds

#88

Post by airhead969 »

Impatience due to rules not applying to them. And delay is often some form of BS. "Strategic" impatience when patience encourages faster results. (Manipulating people on the highway to drive faster or change lanes through various techniques.)

Nothing precludes actual fierceness rather than strictly fitting to an archetype. I used to illegally street race for cash. I can detail strip most Glocks, ARs, and AKs, and fire each without occluded aiming. Grandfathers were both competition military wheel gun marksmen. There are such people as nerdy bodybuilders.

I took the SAT-I without any preparation (absolutely zero) and aced the math section, 5 on AP Calc BC with minimal preparation at school; no coaches, no practice tests, and no bootcamp classes after school. My school was supposed to be good but it sucked in one particular way as it picked me through testing to represent a math tournament but sent me completely unprepared in the fields and subject matter, it was embarrassing. I was usually the lone white dude amongst mostly Asian and Indian overachievers who had rich af parents with every sort of coach and social help. I road a steel-framed bicycle to school 4 miles each way everyday, they had hand-me-down BMWs and Mercedes parked in the school parking lot.

The other issue is like BUD/S and specops, the people told they couldn't or were unsuited also tend to be the ones with the most heart. Someone can't wish to be more fluidly-intelligent, but they can become more relentlessly-resourceful and dog-with-a-bone. Wisdom, experience, and mastery trends to swamp raw intelligence as someone ages... plus, fluid intelligence tends to decline.

Post reply on HN