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Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu

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Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#51

Ultimately it's an ~education thing (for the lack of a better word). You and others want to be in a place where people aren't hiding their thoughts that much. Ability to express subjective criticism in a mellow manner is very important. And the ability to accept being wrong. Basically being tuned to others POV to improve everybody's view or understanding without undermining their well being too.

You are describing the Socratic Method[0]. It is a great way to discover the blind spots in your reasoning and enhance your worldview. Unfortunately, there are people who feel extremely threatened by the process.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best propaganda and misinformation is framed to appear unbiased to its audience. The most effective propaganda I've seen seems to be highly emotionally charged. Political parties and religions are our most prominent organizations that depend entirely on evangelism, and I don't see many examples of them thriving through appearing to appear purely logical and unbiased.

Key phrase: " that I've seen ". Well done propaganda (framed to appear unbiased to its audience) is not even noticed as such by the reader. The effectiveness of this can be seen right here on HN in the hundreds/thousands of culture-war themed posts where people will quote newspaper articles that are written (intentionally or not) in a loose/ambiguous/leading way that facilitates significant interpretation of the word…

Precisely. When you're properly propagandized, you don't even know it, you don't question it.

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#53

We are hearing from two people who were able to weather the political whirlwind. Sadly, this playbook of ostracization is a generally successful one. The people who are successfully sidelined by this kind of behavior become actual pariahs. Their isolation is so complete that people have a tendency to explain this as "academia working as intended".

I really appreciated this post by Gelman — I don't always empathize with his writing, but it was a good thing to learn about this side of his experience, him being someone that I think of as being on the other side of that social inclusion continuum. At the same time I agree with you that it's hard to know what to make of it because he did obviously get through it, and the problem is that so many don't, for many reasons.

I have maybe too many reactions to put into words, but the thing I wrestle with most about the phenomenon he's pointing to is why isn't this more fully acknowledged by the community, however you define that? It's the strangling silence about these types of phenomena that is maybe the worst, at a number of levels. When you're going through it, I think part of the problem is that there's no inputs to provide a different perspective, to show you "hey this looks this way but it's not". It's not even within someone's abilities at that point at some level, as you're lacking any sort of realistic social inputs. Then, at another level, why doesn't, say the academic community come to terms with how common these sorts of pathological dynamics are, and how dominant they are in outcomes? Why isn't the broader nonacademic community more aware of these kinds of problems?

I don't think these sorts of issues are without consequence either. For example, this story isn't really about the same thing, but I do think it starts to involve related social problems, that had worldwide implications for COVID, measles, and tuberculosis: https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwu... . To me one of the worst problems with politicization of COVID science is how unrealistic both sides seemed to get, with one invoking strange conspiracy theories when typical academic politics is trouble enough, and the other seemingly in denial about any sort of problems in academic science.

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#54

I worked in academia a few years, and moved to industry during my PhD (which I completed). There were strong political jousts, like everywhere else. This was unfortunately coupled to an inherent lack of money (and low salaries), and enormous egos that were growing as people were getting higher diplomas or positions. This is one of the reasons that made me left because I saw that either I jump into the cage and bite m…

Did you find people with similar mindset in that 'zoo' ?

Yes. I would say that the population was made up of people who wanted to do politics, the ones that wanted to do research without interfering with anyone, and the ones who left for industry because they wanted to at least be well paid and not look at each euro back and forth.

I would say that the second population was good to brilliant, but somehow unfit for the real world (that was theoretical physics, mostly). The latter was usually quite good, and especially aware of their capacities.

The first one was a disgrace to science. I had exchanges at levels I am ashamed of (a professor told me once that my field (modelization, that was in the early days of neural networks) has nothing to do with science and is for wimps. To what I told him that it indeed requires a minimal amount of intelligence, so some just do not get it). "Quelle ambiance, quelle ambiance" as we say in France - we had a few more of these exchanges, between the God Of The Dept and the slimy PhD subhuman that I was :) In retrospective, that was a good training.

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#55
post #37

We are hearing from two people who were able to weather the political whirlwind. Sadly, this playbook of ostracization is a generally successful one. The people who are successfully sidelined by this kind of behavior become actual pariahs. Their isolation is so complete that people have a tendency to explain this as "academia working as intended".

This is why it is so important to have the courage to get up and leave. If one has been successfully sidelined then, yes, they will become an actual pariah because they feel like they have to explain everything that they do and will continue to do so because they feel like no one is acknowledging them. This is part of the gaslighters trap. It should not be a surprise that there are some who might feel threatened by p…

As the academic job market gets more and more competitive, in group vs. out group dynamics get stronger and stronger and stronger.

And yet so many of my classmates from graduate school (mathematics) prefer to live through "visiting assistant professor" hell than make the transition into technology, where they would do very well!

I never really thought of it as a matter of courage, but maybe it is.

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#56
post #53

We are hearing from two people who were able to weather the political whirlwind. Sadly, this playbook of ostracization is a generally successful one. The people who are successfully sidelined by this kind of behavior become actual pariahs. Their isolation is so complete that people have a tendency to explain this as "academia working as intended".

I really appreciated this post by Gelman — I don't always empathize with his writing, but it was a good thing to learn about this side of his experience, him being someone that I think of as being on the other side of that social inclusion continuum. At the same time I agree with you that it's hard to know what to make of it because he did obviously get through it, and the problem is that so many don't, for many reas…

Wow, that article about aerosol transmission gave me scary flashbacks to academia. :)

The reason there isn't more acknowledgment by the community comes down to a variant of survivorship bias. The people who have remained in academia are largely oblivious to the existence of this kind of treatment mainly because it is so effective.

Anyone on the receiving end of this kind of political assassination (or even just willful ignorance) doesn't survive in the academic community with a high probability.

Even if they do (as we can see from this article and the one it is about), there is no strong incentive to stand up for people who didn't survive it. Those people are no longer in academia and so are not immediately important to anyone still in the academic community.

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#57
post #33

> There was no exchange of articles or courtroom-type setting where the authors of the lies had to directly defend or abandon those statements, and I guess the others in the department had some sort of cynical view that the details didn’t matter. Or, more precisely, they had a consensus that they didn’t want to think about the ugly thing that had happened, so they’d look away The above resonated with me. One of the h…

> They will just silently embellish minor transgressions, or take things out of context to paint you in a negative light...

And it doesn't really require embellishment. Context is everything in this case. The difference between a small joke meant to be endearing and an attack can be entirely in the eye of the beholder. Even something as inane as "working hard or hardly working?" can be taken negatively if you're already primed to expect it that way.

It's very, very hard to get back to even neutral with people that have negative assumptions about you. Even if you point out that some initial interaction that gave them a negative impression was entirely mistaken on their part or unfounded, it's not like people go back through all the interactions after that point which they interpreted negatively because of that, so these self-reinforced opinions are very hard to shake for people.

It really brings into perspective that old adage, "you never get a second chance to make a first impression."

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#59
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did this happen as a last resort after more noble attempt failed ? Or was it the first reflex of the group ? Also was the other person really unfriendly or detrimental to the group or was it somehow subjective/ego driven (threatened by a newcomer) ?

No, this wasn't some misunderstanding, or even a disagreement. It was control. Those that didn't play the game were ostracized. Where possible they were set up to fail, and were generally made miserable. Ego driven? Certainly. I don't think there was any fear of newcomers, but was more about loyalty. Many of these people had worked together previously, and would coordinate to enforce what they wanted. Eventually they…

It's somehow staggering and grounding to know that these exist... I wish I could investigate these kinds of groups.

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#60
post #51

Ultimately it's an ~education thing (for the lack of a better word). You and others want to be in a place where people aren't hiding their thoughts that much. Ability to express subjective criticism in a mellow manner is very important. And the ability to accept being wrong. Basically being tuned to others POV to improve everybody's view or understanding without undermining their well being too.

You are describing the Socratic Method[0]. It is a great way to discover the blind spots in your reasoning and enhance your worldview. Unfortunately, there are people who feel extremely threatened by the process. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method

Not entirely, but not far yeah. Socratic seems more about ideas or intellect. I meant it more on the emotional or human side of things. It's not about finding a truth, but ensuring a lively and positive group life.
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