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More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

nytimes.com

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Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#81

Post by AndrewBissell »

The discussion around this issue is always implicitly framed as though "Covid came from a lab" implies "created by CCP researchers." The GoF ties to US institutions including the Pentagon are always assiduously avoided (the NY Mag article being one notable exception: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-esca...)

Very interesting to see this idea bubbling to the surface at the same time that Bill Gates's Epstein ties are being re-broadcast, the CDC is rapidly reversing guidance and relaxing protocols, the WEF cancelling its summer meeting, Elon Musk suddenly sticking the knife in crypto's back ....

Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#82

Post by fullshark »

actuator wrote: post #10

How is this even going to work? PRC will never allow access to the actual data if it was a lab escape/origin. The sort of propoganda happening on Twitter shows that even discussion is going to be difficult.

Even if the west simply refuses to 100% accept the natural origin story it will have geopolitical consequences.

Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#83

Post by johncena33 »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #42
btilly wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is whether the type of research that might have lead to this result should be shut down to prevent similar accidents in the future. If COVID-19 was, in fact, a lab release then that's a strong argument for shutting the research down.

Even if it was a lab release, it's still a natural virus and could have happened without the lab release. Without previous studies of related viruses, it would have taken multiple years to produce a vaccine.

By that logic there shouldn't be any murder trials. Eventually everyone will die.

It is sickening that millions of people died, more will die, hundreds of millions of people have been pushed below poverty line, almost every single person's life on the planet is affected in some way and some people think it's unnecessary to investigate.

Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#84

Post by marcosdumay »

AndrewBissell wrote: post #59
mirekrusin wrote: post #18

What's the point? Regardless if it leaked from the lab or not we have to prepare for the future the same way.

If this virus indeed came from a lab, then: a.) It was covered up, b.) The people responsible hid crucial information which could have helped contain the spread in the early days and find treatments, c.) The people assuring us that lab creation was an impossible "conspiracy theory" at the very least have egg on their face, and at worst have no credibility or were engaged in a campaign of mis/disinformation. And that'…

Ok, those are 3 very different points, so:

> It was covered up

This is not actionable.

> The people responsible hid crucial information which could have helped contain the spread in the early days and find treatments

You imply in punishing those people? In the case it was a leak, the people interested in punishing them don't have that power, the people with that power were the same suppressing the information, so no, that won't happen.

> The people assuring us that lab creation was an impossible "conspiracy theory" at the very least have egg on their face, and at worst have no credibility or were engaged in a campaign of mis/disinformation

You should already remove any credibility from anybody claiming it was impossible, as well as from anybody claiming any other kind of certainty. What actually happened won't change that.

What we should do is take a good new look at the containment procedures of those labs, reevaluate them, verify if they are followed and fix what is not. We should also press uncooperative countries, like China, to open those up for inspection. Again, whether this one virus came from a lab leak or not is not relevant, we know that best practices are still leaky, and we have seen how problematic a leak would be.

All this politics game of "did | did not" is very counterproductive.

Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#85

Post by calotow »

actuator wrote: post #65
tomjen3 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If experts can make a decent argument that the lab escape is the most likely scenario, then the PRC can choose to let us have access to the data, or look 100% guilty and be treated accordingly.

You don't believe data can be manufactured/erased to tell a story if someone is willing to? There is enough time as well to generate a new trail of breadcrumbs. I don't think we will get the true answer or an answer that is going to satisfy everyone, just a lot of geopolitical posturing.

I read on a bumper sticker though that "science doesn't lie".

Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#86

Post by chrisbrandow »

jostmey wrote: post #69
screye wrote: post #22

Shekhar Gupta (One of India's foremost journalists and media people) did a great 30 minute analysis of this article covering who the cast members are and how this ties back into various stories from the last year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlO8sKRynBY So far, the lab origin story sounds the most plausible and has the least holes in it. Now innocent until proven guilty is a thing, but is not like the PRC would e…

How is this the lab origin story more plausible than the original hypothesis that sars-cov2 originated from the wet-markets? Both are places where human and exotic animals closely interact, where sars-cov2 could have jumped. Why do you think the odds of the virus jumping are higher in one place than another?

I’m not in a position to say one way or the other, but the articles detail a number of suggestive evidence that in my mind makes the wild animal spread less likely. But as has been pointed out, it is NOT definitive one way or the other.

Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#87

Post by mirekrusin »

saas_sam wrote: post #50
bryanlarsen wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it was a lab release, it's still a natural virus and could have happened without the lab release. Without previous studies of related viruses, it would have taken multiple years to produce a vaccine.

>Even if it was a lab release, it's still a natural virus and could have happened without the lab release. That is not the assertion being made by the scientists pushing for the investigation. The assertion is that this is a chimeric virus that very much does NOT show up in nature and its lab-made qualities are precisely why it became a global pandemic. Or would you take it as pure coincidence that the first truly gl…

It still doesn't change anything, this type of research is getting too easy/too cheap to say that policy can save us from it. Somewhere someone will be doing it knowing the goal is to invoke genocide like final solution.

Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#88

Post by checker »

whatthesmack wrote: post #32
austincheney wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an argument from ignorance logical fallacy. The inability to find something has no bearing on whether it exists or not and thus has no bearing on the probability of an inverted outcome. Dark matter/energy also frequently fall into this sort of argument. There is no evidence that they do exist, which does not suggest the absence of their existence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Not sure what your point is. The source for SARS and MERS were found within months. We're over a year into this with no clue. Based on the current circumstances' inconsistencies with historical circumstances, this appears to be something different.

Source for finding SARS source within months?

This is contrary but I'm open to debate. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3747529/

Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#89

Post by loudmax »

mirekrusin wrote: post #18

What's the point? Regardless if it leaked from the lab or not we have to prepare for the future the same way.

I tend to sympathize with this attitude, and while it is absolutely true that the world needs to be better prepared for pandemics regardless of origin, I don't think it's correct that the origin of the disease doesn't matter.

Just from a scientific perspective, we should know where covid-19 came from. If it hopped from bats to people in a wet market, that tells us something about the likelihood of this type of virus spreading from contact with wild animals. If it was accidentally released from a lab, that tells us something different.

In a healthy geopolitical environment, an impartial investigative team that's able to pinpoint the source of the original transmission could make this information public so that everyone can learn how to avoid this happening again. If the pandemic happened because policy enforcement at the virus lab in Wuhan was weak, this is worth knowing. Not to to lay blame and point fingers, but to help labs worldwide identify potential weak points in their own procedures.

The danger is that if evidence points to an accidental lab release, some Western politicians will seize on the opportunity to shame China just for the sake of national chauvinism. This will accomplish nothing positive. The Chinese Communist Party is very thin skinned and essentially amoral so they'll have no compunctions about covering up any evidence of a lab leak in order to save face. All of this political stuff risks getting in the way of helping the scientific community understand where covid-19 came from so we'll have a better understanding of how to reduce the chances of this happening again.

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