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How M1 Macs feel faster than Intel models: it’s about QoS

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Re: How M1 Macs feel faster than Intel models: it’s about QoS

#191
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these performance metrics are somewhat limited in their usefulness. A Ryzen workstation might not have the same single-core performance or energy efficiency—however, a ryzen workstation can have gobs of memory for massive data-intensive workloads for the same cost as a baseline M1 device. In addition: let’s talk upgradability or repairability. Oh wait, Apple doesn’t play that game. You’ll get more mileage on…

> But, then why not just VNC into a beastmode machine on a netbook and compile remotely? After all, that’s what CI/CD pipeline is for. Is this how you work?

My work takes place at a beefy desktop machine. I wouldn't want it any other way... I get to plug in as many displays as I need, I get all the memory I need, I can add internal drives, there's no shortage of USB ports or expansion - and I get them cheap. For meetings or any kind of work away from my desk I'll remote in from one of my laptops.

All that and my preferred OS (Manjaro/XFCE), which runs on anything, has been more stable than any Mac I've ever owned. Every update to macOS has broken something or changed the UI drastically and in a way I have no control over...

If I ever switch away from desktops, it will be for a Framework laptop or something similar.

Re: How M1 Macs feel faster than Intel models: it’s about QoS

#192
post #48

That is all well and good. Great actually. And it makes sense. The high efficiency reduced instruction set computer has highly optimized architecture to improve efficiency. But we all knew that deep down. It's like the Ford Tempo. A mere 80 horsepower mated to a well designed and highly optimized transmission gave levels of performance that were higher than other cars in the same market. What I can't stand are all th…

>What I can't stand are all the people saying the M1 is capable of replacing high end x86 computers. Whether or not this is possible completely depends on their unique workload. The M1 could probaly obviate any x86 chip for the average programmers. But that wouldn't be the case for gamer workloads, for example.

Is it really about workload though?

A high end gaming PC will compile typescript, play games with high quality graphics, and run your 100 browser tabs. Let's be honest, an Intel Core 2 Duo would obviate most programmer workloads just fine.

By your logic the Apple M1 is comparable to a high-end x86 chips, but you go on in the same breath with the disclaimer that it is "only certain workloads."

That is my point. A high end PC doesn't care about your workload. It is unobjectively fast. Period. You are the Tempo driver claiming that you would have beaten that Challenger if the temperature of the drag strip were just a little bit hotter....

But that Challenger doesn't care about operating conditions or workload or whatever. It will win today, tomorrow, and the next day while you're claiming that the Tempo is "comparable in the snow on Tuesdays."

Re: How M1 Macs feel faster than Intel models: it’s about QoS

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to compare without mentioning the actual CPU in it. FWIW my Ryzen 3900X completes that compile in 15s. To be fair, that is a relatively high-end desktop CPU, but it's also a massive margin for a last-gen model.

We also have to consider the i7 and M1 run at about 1/7 the TDP of the Ryzen. Just underscores the good design behind the QoS and judicious use of the Performance cores vs Efficiency cores.

Yeah, but that's previous generation. Get a 5850U or even a 5980HX...

Re: How M1 Macs feel faster than Intel models: it’s about QoS

#194
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these performance metrics are somewhat limited in their usefulness. A Ryzen workstation might not have the same single-core performance or energy efficiency—however, a ryzen workstation can have gobs of memory for massive data-intensive workloads for the same cost as a baseline M1 device. In addition: let’s talk upgradability or repairability. Oh wait, Apple doesn’t play that game. You’ll get more mileage on…

granted they charge exorbitant prices for their hardware, but I can’t believe how my 2010 MacBook Pro is still functioning perfectly fine.. except for them making it unsupported. I can’t say that about any other pc/laptop I have had. Not even desktops

My two main PCs are a Phenom II-based desktop and a Thinkpad X220i (with the lowly Core i3, even!). Both are perfectly functional and usable today, with a few minor upgrades here and there, the usual SSDs, more RAM and a Radeon RX560 for the desktop.

The Thinkpad is obviously no powerhouse, but still works great for general desktop use, ie. browsing, email, document editing, music, video (1080p h264 is no problem). The desktop plays GTA V at around 40-50 FPS at 1080p with maximum settings. And this isn't some premium build, it's a pretty standard Asrock motherboard with Kingston ValueRAM and a Samsung SSD.

Decade-old hardware is still perfectly viable today.

Re: How M1 Macs feel faster than Intel models: it’s about QoS

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long does it take on a Ryzen 9 5950X

Note that's a 16 core CPU with 105W TDP compared to a quad core < 10W M1

5850U is an 8 core CPU with a TDP that is adjustable between 10-25w. If you want to keep it to 4 cores just so it is a fair fight, there's the 5400U/5450U. AMD does pretty well...

Re: How M1 Macs feel faster than Intel models: it’s about QoS

#196
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did a side-by-side comparing with my friends' M1 macbook and my (more expensive, nearly brand new) ryzen 5800x workstation compiling rust. The ryzen was faster - but it was really close. And the macbook beats my ryzen chip in single threaded performance. For reference, the ryzen compiles ripgrep in 19.7 seconds. The comparison is way too close given the ryzen workstation guzzles power, and the macbook is cheaper, p…

I'm still unconvinced it's the M1's design and not TSMC's fab process.

When you move to a smaller process node, you have a choice between improving performance or cutting power. (or some mix of both)

Apple seems to have taken the power reduction with the A14 and M1 on TSMC 5nm, not the performance increase.

>The one explanation and theory I have is that Apple might have finally pulled back on their excessive peak power draw at the maximum performance states of the CPUs and GPUs, and thus peak performance wouldn’t have seen such a large jump this generation, but favour more sustainable thermal figures.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16088/apple-announces-5nm-a14...

Re: How M1 Macs feel faster than Intel models: it’s about QoS

#197
post #75

It does not just feel faster, in many cases it is faster. E.g. compiling Rust code is so much faster that it is not even funny. cargo install -f ripgrep takes 22 seconds on a Mac Book Air with M1, same on a hexacore 2020 Dell XPS 17 with 64GB RAM takes 34 seconds.

I did a side-by-side comparing with my friends' M1 macbook and my (more expensive, nearly brand new) ryzen 5800x workstation compiling rust. The ryzen was faster - but it was really close. And the macbook beats my ryzen chip in single threaded performance. For reference, the ryzen compiles ripgrep in 19.7 seconds. The comparison is way too close given the ryzen workstation guzzles power, and the macbook is cheaper, p…

After buying my M1 and benchmarking it against the top of the line i9 I considered shorting Intel's stock, alas they're so large it'll take a while for the decline to catch up with them.

Re: How M1 Macs feel faster than Intel models: it’s about QoS

#198

The other half of the story for the efficiency cores seems to be the battery life. Most of these non-urgent background tasks are put on efficiency cores not only to separate them from my applications, but also to enable this insanely good battery life.

There is also a thermal benefit. Using the high efficiency cores puts a lower load on the cooling system. So even if the computer is plugged in and the performance cores are idle it may be best not to use them and let the cooling system gain some headroom for when the performance cores are needed.

Re: How M1 Macs feel faster than Intel models: it’s about QoS

#199

Sounds like the consensus here is that the M1 feels faster, and is actually faster, for a lot of tasks. So, for a lot of engineers, the M1 is the better choice over Intels. (Faster compile times are a good thing for devs, among other things) In that regard, the moment feels similar to the mid 2000s, when you suddenly saw a huge uptick in Macbooks at technical conferences: software developers seemed to gravitate in dr…

> So, for a lot of engineers, the M1 is the better choice over Intels.

I don't know which engineers you hang out with, but the only "engineer" I know who uses an M1 Mac does web design. Besides that, the M1 doesn't support most of the software that most engineers are using (unless you're working in a field already focused on ARM), and the fragility of a Macbook isn't really suited for a workshop environment. Among them, Thinkpads still reign supreme (though one guy has a Hackintosh, so maybe you were right all along?)

> But I wonder if the M1 will solidify or grow Apple's (perceived) dominance among developers?

Developers are going to be extremely split on this one. ARM is still in it's infancy right now, especially for desktop applications, so unless your business exclusively relies on MacOS customers, there's not much of a value proposition in compiling a special version of your program for 7% of your users. Because of that, MacOS on ARM has one of the worst package databases in recent memory. Besides, there's a lightning round full of other reasons why MacOS is a pretty poor fit for high-performance computing:

- BSD-styled memory management causes frequent page faults and thrashes memory/swap

- Quartz and other necessary kernel processes consume inordinate amounts of compute

- MacPorts and Brew are both pretty miserable package managers compared to the industry standard options.

- Macs have notoriously terrible hardware compatability

- Abstracting execution makes it harder to package software, harder to run it, and harder to debug it when something goes wrong

...and many more!

In other words, I doubt the M1 will do much to corroborate Apple's perceived superiority among the tech-y crowd. Unless people were really that worried about Twitter pulling up a few dozen milliseconds faster, I fail to see how it's any better of an "engineering" laptop than it's alternatives. If anything, it's GPU is significantly weaker than most other laptops on the market.

Re: How M1 Macs feel faster than Intel models: it’s about QoS

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did a side-by-side comparing with my friends' M1 macbook and my (more expensive, nearly brand new) ryzen 5800x workstation compiling rust. The ryzen was faster - but it was really close. And the macbook beats my ryzen chip in single threaded performance. For reference, the ryzen compiles ripgrep in 19.7 seconds. The comparison is way too close given the ryzen workstation guzzles power, and the macbook is cheaper, p…

I've done a side by side with my Ryzen 3700x compiling a Go project. 6 seconds on the Ryzen, vs 9 seconds on the M1 air. `time go build -a`, so not very scientific. Could be attributed to the multicore performance of the Ryzen. Starting applications on the M1 seems to have significant delays too, but I'm not sure if that's a Mac OSX thing. Overall it's very impressive, I just don't see the same lunch eating performan…

> `time go build -a`, so not very scientific.

A tool I have enjoyed using to make these measurements more accurate is hyperfine[0].

In general, the 3700X beating the M1 should be the expected result... it has double the number of high performance cores, several times as much TDP, and access to way more RAM and faster SSDs.

The fact that the M1 is able to be neck and neck with the 3700X is impressive, and the M1 definitely can achieve some unlikely victories. It'll be interesting to see what happens with the M1X (or M2, whatever they label it).

[0]: https://github.com/sharkdp/hyperfine

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